Minor Idea: Make Art of War ranged

[AmiableApkallu]

If people aren't even willing to have a ranged Art of War, then it's hard to see how they could change the Jobs from top to bottom to be different if you guys give so much pushback against even a minor step in that direction...

Oy vey. "Not enthused by Renathras's minor step" ≠ "Unwilling to take any minor step at all."

Here's a minor step towards "mak[ing] SCH and SGE less same-y" that at least a few folks are willing to consider:

If any, I think it's SGE who should get something different. It's -laser-, why not let them have an 8y frontal-cone/10-12y line AoE instead? Why does everything has to be circle(s)? Imo this subtle difference is just enough to make me remember that I'm playing SGE during trash pulls (standing next to the group of mobs), not a SCH. (trying to plant myself where the tank is)

[fulminating]

/sigh

Well, I can't say I didn't expect this. XD

SGE being the ranged one would be fine if Plegma was given a 25y range, but that requires more change. SCH having Miasma 2 in the past is irrelevant since it doesn't have it now anyway, and further, by that token we could argue SCH had Shadow Flare FIRST which WAS ranged (and targeted on the ground).

All of this could have been skipped if they'd just, you know, made sage a unique job instead of a reskin.

[Renathras]

Oy vey. That's not a "minor" step, though. And would require several reworks to achieve the objective.

Babysteps.

Not to mention the Devs have been doing the exact opposite - they've removed cones from most Jobs that had them, turning them into circles (WAR and SAM could tell you a story or two...), and line AOEs are pretty rare. Not to mention that wouldn't really feel any different. "I still have an instant AOE that requires melee range, but now I stand slightly to the side of the pack instead of the middle! How EXCITING! /sarcasm"

.

EDIT:

All of this could have been skipped if they'd just, you know, made sage a unique job instead of a reskin.

Sure, but that's not the world we live in.

.

Anyway, as I said, this thread turned out exactly as I expected, so I guess no surprise at all there. "Healers need changes!" "How about this little change tha-" "NOT THAT!!!"

[fulminating]

Well yeah, it's not the kind of change people are talking about. I'm sure if I suggested benediction should just vastly increase the natural hp regen on target, and allow ast to have all the big hp heals it'd go down like a lead balloon because it's only muddying the waters and not at all what people mean when they say healers are too samey.

[Renathras]

Well yeah, it's not the kind of change people are talking about. I'm sure if I suggested benediction should just vastly increase the natural hp regen on target, and allow ast to have all the big hp heals it'd go down like a lead balloon because it's only muddying the waters and not at all what people mean when they say healers are too samey.

Actually, I wouldn't be opposed to that, but the problem then becomes that you've now inverted what the two Jobs are (supposedly) known for, meaning you'd need to remove AST's buffs and give WHM the buffs insted.

On the other hand, if you suggested making Benediction not have the weird time delay, people would likely support that kind of small change. Or Tetra be a oGCD Regen. Might get mixed results on that one, but meh.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]It has Dyskrasia (circle on you), Toxicon (circle on enemy), Phlegma (circle on enemy) and I guess Pneuma (line from you to enemy). Whole lot of circles. Why couldn't it be lines? Terminus Est style fire cross in front of you, MCH LB3 style 'point at floor, arc upwards to raze in front of the SGE' style, etc, many options for Line AOE skills when you have 'lasers' as the aesthetic. When I first saw SGE I had a dream, that it's Medica equivalent was a wide Line AOE in the direction it was facing (think Asylum width), so which way you faced was an actual gameplay factor

Pneuma & Phlegma are really the only two buttons that reminds me that I'm playing SGE than a SCH, and even then we don't get to press them so often, barred by the cooldown. Frankly when I first read their earliest tooltip at Endwalker launch, I thought we'll be seeing memes of SGE performing Pneuma with macro lines like: "Okay... get in line guys...! And say.. cheessseee!! *heals*"

Toxikon II? After looking at PvP RDM's LB "Southern Cross", it makes me wish the former is actually a cross-shaped AoE like the latter.

[...]Not to mention the Devs have been doing the exact opposite - they've removed cones from most Jobs that had them, turning them into circles (WAR and SAM could tell you a story or two...), and line AOEs are pretty rare. Not to mention that wouldn't really feel any different. "I still have an instant AOE that requires melee range, but now I stand slightly to the side of the pack instead of the middle! How EXCITING! /sarcasm"[...]

Y'know you need to target something to cast that hypothetical linear/conal AoE & try to to hit as much targets as possible, right? As opposed to... just gluing yourself to the tank, effectively missing whatever mobs sitting away from your line of sight? If folks chooses to not do this and just hit whatever closest to them just because they don't feel any different, then that's on them. Ranged AoW is straight up "Gravity II but better". Same targeting nuance, full mobility, two weaving window, safe from melee hazards, and 50p stronger per target.

If you ever used RDM's Enchanted AoE combo, Resolution finisher, DRG's AoEs, and/or WAR's pre 6.1 Overpower, you would've at least been aware of this little gameplay nuance. Heck even AST's Gravity needs it, albeit to smaller degree. If it's this targeting nuance that people abhors, alternatively they can make it so you don't require a target---you just need to point your character at favorable direction to get the most out of each casts. BLU's spells "Snort", "Surpanakha", & "Glass Dance" are three example of actions that does not require a target to perform but has an AoE shape that is not a circle (First two being frontal conal & the third being frontal 270 degree AoE respectively!).

I care not what the dev intend, think or feel in this regard. They have stated in the past to leave feedback/comment in forum and that's what they will get, one of them being: 'everything being circle(s) are boring.' Whether they'll reciprocated or not is another story.

[Nizzi]

/sigh

Well, I can't say I didn't expect this. XD

SGE being the ranged one would be fine if Plegma was given a 25y range, but that requires more change. SCH having Miasma 2 in the past is irrelevant since it doesn't have it now anyway, and further, by that token we could argue SCH had Shadow Flare FIRST which WAS ranged (and targeted on the ground).

As to needing major reworks for SCH and SGE to be less the same - you have to be willing to start somewhere. If people aren't even willing to have a ranged Art of War, then it's hard to see how they could change the Jobs from top to bottom to be different if you guys give so much pushback against even a minor step in that direction... <_<

SGE has Ikarus every 45s to allow it to get within melee range to use Phlegma. I don't see how SGE getting a ranged AoE would mean Phlegma needs to also be ranged; the gameplay of having to get in to dump Phlegma and then move back out with Toxicons to spam your AoE would be fine, and you can stay in range to spam a ranged spell too. As a side thing now that Phlegma is 40s, Ikarus should be changed too (also should have a second charge too but I would bet it will get that as a trait in 7.0)

I also don't think it should change for SCH because of how large hitboxes have gotten. Art of War sees usage in things like p6 of DSR; Gravity II is also a gain on 2 and isn't used at all in DSR as far as I'm aware unlike AoW because of how large the hitboxes are for Niddhogg and Hraesvelgar during that phase. Ranged attacks are centered within the target's hitbox unlike PBAoEs, so making SCH's AoE go from centered around the SCH to ranged takes a lot of its flexibility away in situations like that, even if it was to stay a gain on 2. Ranged spells are also less flexible for healing due to the fact that you can no longer be targeting a player while spamming it, which wouldn't be a big deal to experienced players, but may be a harder adjustment for newer ones. Of course, I don't think kits should be married to Ultimate in terms of how they're designed, but I don't see a reason to take away a strength of SCH's singular AoE button so SGE would be the only healer who gets to do that, on top of already having massively better AoE damage over Scholar.

Also, if Art of War is being changed to ranged, you may as well just make Ruin II the AoE spell as well and be done with it, at that point you just have "ST Ruin II" and "AoE Ruin II".

[Renathras]

Also, if Art of War is being changed to ranged, you may as well just make Ruin II the AoE spell as well and be done with it, at that point you just have "ST Ruin II" and "AoE Ruin II".

Remove Art of War and make Ruin 2 into Ruin 4 (though with lower potency than the SMN version, obviously, and with no CD or anything)?

Meh, I'm down. Sure, let's just do that.

[Osmond]

…………

I was going to say to upgrade ruin 2, but treat it as SCH exclusive name instead of ruin 4. SMN took that. Hmm…….they’ll have to make a trade off so it won’t be spammed though… the only thing I can see it working if they adjust Energy Drain instead of single target as AoE…..but don’t call it energy drain. Trait upgrade I guess, potency increase obviously, remove the HP recovery(why is it still there I’ll never know), give it a dmg buff while in dissipation(it needs something to be worthwhile) since SCHs won’t get any fairy gauge(make no sense to get nothing still).

[ForsakenRoe]

but treat it as SCH exclusive name instead of ruin 4

Nominating 'Meltdown' from FF8