So why are the crafter relics.. bad.

[Kaurhz]

What you're arguing is what already is going to be provided in the next patches. We are just starting the crafter relics. So I seriously dont know what the hell is your problem.

No, I was simply arguing that there is no necessary reason to currently, on this patch, at this point in time for the relic weapons to be more powerful than they already are (and specified reasons for this, being that relic is intended to be progressive, and has more steps before it is 'equally or more powerful' than a pentamelded counterpart, and if people think otherwise then the progression system should appropriately reflect this). As per my original post below.

To be clear, I assume that you're somehow going to read into this more than intended, so... The relic weapons at their current point are fine, what they offer is very appropriate. It is just not appropriate for them to be 'more powerful' than they already are at this current point in time. I argued this because those replying, and the OP seem to think they should be more powerful when it is a progressive system.

There was no win-win with this. On one hand they lul behind until the expansion is near concluded, alternatively they can put the relic ahead of crafted tools immediately, and in doing so you render the crafted tools irrelevant.

Simply put, the relic is progressive and is still a WIP, so they will end up being better, or on-par with pentamelded main-hand tool by the end of the expansion.

I then also subsequently argued the point that such small stat gains from, say, 620 to 625 don't really always result in a measurable change, e.g., doesn't change your rotation or consumables. If you have the Craftsmanship to synth, and additional craftsmanship doesn't change that then it is just burned stats. The same applies to control, if your loss or gain of control doesn't change the rotations you're using then it's just unnecessary.

To put this in the most basic view possible. - If I were to progress to and commit to melding my tools, and if I were to swap to those as opposed to using the Crystalline Tools then every single rotation I have would not change, nor would consumable usage change.

[SaltyDaddy]

No, they'll get higher Control/Crafting/CP stats all around. Indagator is the last crafted set we'll get for Endwalker, just like the Aesthete stuff was the last set we got in Shadowbringers. I didn't finish my Skysteel tools, but just my Skysung Needle has better stats than the Aesthete's Needle, and it's not even the finished version.

Aesthete's Needle HQ (iLv 490)
Craftsmanship: +806
Control: +441
5 Materia Slots

Skysung Needle (iLv 500)
Craftsmanship: +830
Control: +455
CP: +6

Skybuilders' Needle (iLv 510) Complete Relic
Craftsmanship: +854
Control: +468
CP: +6

So not only will we get better stats for sure, we'll also get the bonus on quality steps, which the Skysteel Tools didn't have, if I remember correctly.

Thats funny, because I still have my pentamelded 490 gear. I have 485 control +6 CP on my tools, which was much better than finished relic. I never cared about relic, because it would be a downgrade, as you dont care about craftmanship, once you hit a breakpoint you needed for crafting and didnt wanted to remeld my whole gear. So no, "better starts for sure" is bs and just pure lie.

Seriously. Most of the coments here never crafted it seems. Crafter relics are useless even in the last step. And I dont care about the bonus for expert crafts, as I have no problem crafting those even with current crafted gear. Just money and time sink to get a shiny tool you cant even show off.

Stop justifying bad system just because its in your favourite game. I get battle relics not being bis, as they are simple to get and are usually fun (At least back in ShB). But crafter relic is dull and not even worth as "side class upgrade" stuff.

Relics should be grindy and on par, or at least close to pentamelded gear and added proc is cool, but useless.

Oooh, also also. WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT THE RELIC GETTING BETTER LATER? If I pentameld my gear now, I dont need to give a slightless fuck about some relic step getting better in 8 months or so. So no, "it will get better" is a bad argument, when crafted is better now.

[UkcsAlias]

Stop justifying bad system just because its in your favourite game. I get battle relics not being bis, as they are simple to get and are usually fun (At least back in ShB). But crafter relic is dull and not even worth as "side class upgrade" stuff.

The bad system in this case is that crafting can be easily macro'd because too many things have a static limitation.

While for gathering its often similar, it still faces a lot of RNG afterward, and GP management is also a thing (sure, you can spend an additional 300GP for another yield or 2, but you might want to save that for the next node).

I think that crafting HQ for the newest gear needs a big change.
For example (sure, there are flaws here, but its an example):
Instead of being a 0-100% situation on quality. It instead becomes a repeating cycle where you just want to compete as many cycles to increase odds. This means the quality bar is often filled several times.

Each cycle you get 1 stack, and each stack gives a HQ chance based on your craftmanship stat. And this can be translated into a 25% or 50% HQ rate (and we could also give it a point where 100% is possible, but for most of those older recipes i would just put them out of an expert recipe state). This rate is then used in a multiplicative system per stack: each cycle you reduce the chance of it being NQ by that percentage. 3 stacks at 25% is then only about 57%, while for 50% that would have been 87.5%. It keeps all stats relevant.

And yes, the newest gear might result in a lot of 'waste'. But the craft itself can obviously be made cheaper, or we make a new recipe to reuse the NQ part to try to convert it to HQ.

It would instantly negate macros for any recipe based on this system, as you realy want to push it to its limits. And macros wouldnt use the bonusses properly anymore.

[Oldschoolegamer38]

Who sits there and individually crafts each step with the hope that 'good quality' comes up during the quality part of the craft, which will save ONE STEP of the entire manual craft, when you can just press a macro and do something else for the 30-45 seconds the craft takes.

For macro crafting, its a complete downgrade, and if you are manually craafting, you already putting yourself at such a stupid disadvantage to other crafters.

On the note of GATHERING relics, completely off the topic of the CRAFTER relics which the thread is about, they are honestly fine, if you are somebody who does collectables they are actually worth using.

I like to take my time and do it manually, and yes I do use crafting macros on the easier crafts, but when crafting things that are hard to do I take my time and do it manually step by step to make sure I can squeeze out every bonus possible, why would folks pass over the potential to finish a craft earlier if you get great or excellent condition bonus? Rushing your crafts doesn't make it better it shows how impatient one is, and besides it took me a few times on some pieces before I HQed a few pieces from the current crafting and gathering set.
*side note* the Crystalline tool's passive is noticeable when you are trying to HQ an item or when finishing up a craft...So don't let the loss of materia slots fool you, you are trading in material slots for a bonus when used at the right time can shorten steps , that is something to think about. Also, brute forcing a craft is not always the way to go.

There is a US infantry saying: slow is steady, steady is smooth, smooth is fast. take time to think about that saying and you might understand what I am getting at...

[Oldschoolegamer38]

Thats funny, because I still have my pentamelded 490 gear. I have 485 control +6 CP on my tools, which was much better than finished relic. I never cared about relic, because it would be a downgrade, as you dont care about craftmanship, once you hit a breakpoint you needed for crafting and didnt wanted to remeld my whole gear. So no, "better starts for sure" is bs and just pure lie.

Seriously. Most of the coments here never crafted it seems. Crafter relics are useless even in the last step. And I dont care about the bonus for expert crafts, as I have no problem crafting those even with current crafted gear. Just money and time sink to get a shiny tool you cant even show off.

Stop justifying bad system just because its in your favourite game. I get battle relics not being bis, as they are simple to get and are usually fun (At least back in ShB). But crafter relic is dull and not even worth as "side class upgrade" stuff.

Relics should be grindy and on par, or at least close to pentamelded gear and added proc is cool, but useless.

Oooh, also also. WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT THE RELIC GETTING BETTER LATER? If I pentameld my gear now, I dont need to give a slightless fuck about some relic step getting better in 8 months or so. So no, "it will get better" is a bad argument, when crafted is better now.

wow flawed logic and troll...

[Oldschoolegamer38]

No, I was simply arguing that there is no necessary reason to currently, on this patch, at this point in time for the relic weapons to be more powerful than they already are (and specified reasons for this, being that relic is intended to be progressive, and has more steps before it is 'equally or more powerful' than a pentamelded counterpart, and if people think otherwise then the progression system should appropriately reflect this). As per my original post below.

To be clear, I assume that you're somehow going to read into this more than intended, so... The relic weapons at their current point are fine, what they offer is very appropriate. It is just not appropriate for them to be 'more powerful' than they already are at this current point in time. I argued this because those replying, and the OP seem to think they should be more powerful when it is a progressive system.



I then also subsequently argued the point that such small stat gains from, say, 620 to 625 don't really always result in a measurable change, e.g., doesn't change your rotation or consumables. If you have the Craftsmanship to synth, and additional craftsmanship doesn't change that then it is just burned stats. The same applies to control, if your loss or gain of control doesn't change the rotations you're using then it's just unnecessary.

To put this in the most basic view possible. - If I were to progress to and commit to melding my tools, and if I were to swap to those as opposed to using the Crystalline Tools then every single rotation I have would not change, nor would consumable usage change.

What I am seeing is that the devs wanted to give folks different choices in how they go about crafting. but I think this is just the start...why should this game have absolutes why can't there be more options I used both crafted and crystalline tools and they both have there advantages and disadvantages. Correct me If I am wrong but has there ever been a passive bonus ever in this game outside of just having stats on an item? To my knowledge no. This is refreshing to see more options given to players I do not want to have just one set for everything, I would like to see more sets available to craft specifically for crafting stats. so seeing this is a good place to start.

Edit: GC gear gives a passive bonus so I am mistaken. but that should be given more for relic gear sets for crafting.

[Oldschoolegamer38]

Thats funny, because I still have my pentamelded 490 gear. I have 485 control +6 CP on my tools, which was much better than finished relic. I never cared about relic, because it would be a downgrade, as you dont care about craftmanship, once you hit a breakpoint you needed for crafting and didnt wanted to remeld my whole gear. So no, "better starts for sure" is bs and just pure lie.

Seriously. Most of the coments here never crafted it seems. Crafter relics are useless even in the last step. And I dont care about the bonus for expert crafts, as I have no problem crafting those even with current crafted gear. Just money and time sink to get a shiny tool you cant even show off.

Stop justifying bad system just because its in your favourite game. I get battle relics not being bis, as they are simple to get and are usually fun (At least back in ShB). But crafter relic is dull and not even worth as "side class upgrade" stuff.

Relics should be grindy and on par, or at least close to pentamelded gear and added proc is cool, but useless.

Oooh, also also. WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT THE RELIC GETTING BETTER LATER? If I pentameld my gear now, I dont need to give a slightless fuck about some relic step getting better in 8 months or so. So no, "it will get better" is a bad argument, when crafted is better now.

Also I would like more options than just one set of gear give more gear sets centered around craftsmanship or control set and let the relic gear set take longer, as well but Relic gear set that gives up material slots but gives passive

[Mcg55ss]

Crafted HQ saw:
Craft: +1208
Control: +638
CP: 0
Materia Slots: 5

Relic:
Craft: +1208
Control: +638
CP: +7
Materia Slots: 0

So you just meld.. one CP7 onto your HQ tool and its already 4 slots better than the relic since the 'increases to Quality are 1.75 timers higher than normal when material condition is good' is absolutely useless because everyone macro crafts.

Cmon.

It's just disappointing to see that the 'New' content just gives you downgrades over something that came out 4 months earlier.

Is it such a crime for a 'Relic' to be better than something you buy off the marketboard for 0 effort?

Square Enix can do better.

There are crafter relic weapons too like for EW right now?.........well how do I/where do I start to get those or is the same as DoW/DoM to get????

[Oldschoolegamer38]

How about more options, more choices than just one set? Sets center around one stat or another and also a relic passive loadout with the use of passives with more relic pieces the more passive bonuses on top of the stats the gear provides like set gear sets in other games when you get 2-3 pieces you get a set bonus and the more pieces you get the more bonuses are unlocked. they all can do high-end crafting just have to change around the crafting rotation based on the gear set. something along those lines

[Deceptus]

The Relic should be your BiS item when its required, not 4 months after.

This has never been a thing even for DoW / DoM Relics. They are the strongest by the end of the expansion, but definitely not when you first acquire them on step 1

But on topic, this shows that CBU3 is at least considering warming up to putting modifiers on gear and not just the traditional sub stats which is a substantial leap forward in item design for them.