Are there any plans to fix the 'Haurchefant' localization?

[Saraide]

The apologized because they recognized that they explicitly did the wrong thing.

Your failure to look beyond your discomfort with the concept and appreciate it for what it is - a joke in a video game - is a problem with Western purity culture, whereby you can't even view the subject matter in proper perspective. These tropes exist for a reason and are funny/entertaining to the origin market, in addition to those who would derive entertainment value in a foreign market.
I don't think that accommodating people's discomfort in this regard is good, it has caused people like you to take that discomfort and create a cultural shift wherein you are unintentionally attempting to police Japanese media.

I'm very thankful that John Crow wrote that post and acknowledged the mistake for what it is - a mistake. You may not view it as one, but it was an egregious deviation from their very own philosophy and was done without due consideration or consultation of the relevant parties, and it DID have an effect with how the Western audience engages with this. You can feel free to appreciate this rendition of the character, but the changes made to him affected more than people wanting to see dirty jokes.

I mean it when I say this. People who applaud these types of revisions shouldn't be consuming anime. It's not for them. They're better off relegating themselves to Western media since they don't like having certain ideals be challenged. I could expand further on how FFXIV is problematic in more ways (namely the way Square Enix sexualizes Lalafell), and people like you will shriek about it, stomp your feet, and ultimately ignore it, just like you would with Haurchefant.

The "wrong" thing was not consulting with higher ups because companies are authoritarian. That's what he apologized for. This was his plan going forward:

We share our thoughts with our scenario team counterparts, raising concerns and working through problematic issues together. If we strongly believe that a significant deviation is warranted, we consult with the team leads beforehand, and then we do our utmost to minimize the complications.

It's so funny how you are trying to paint me as puritarian. I'm not, I'm really not. I'm simply glad we got a better version of him. A character I'm quite fond of.

People who applaud these types of revisions shouldn't be consuming anime.

A) Who asked?
B) How is this relevant to the topic? Is FF14 an anime now? I thought it was a final fantasy MMO.

[Ravenblade1979]

maybe he thinking of the anime movies for ff7

[Telkira]

The "wrong" thing was not consulting with higher ups because companies are authoritarian. That's what he apologized for. This was his plan going forward:


It's so funny how you are trying to paint me as puritarian. I'm not, I'm really not. I'm simply glad we got a better version of him. A character I'm quite fond of.



A) Who asked?
B) How is this relevant to the topic? Is FF14 an anime now? I thought it was a final fantasy MMO.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...sions-of-FFXIV

No.

The 'wrong' thing was not only that, but also making the changes to begin with, which is something he explicitly apologized for. You're deliberately cherry-picking, and in that quote, he's simply referring to processes. Yes, it's implied somewhat that he believed that the change was warranted to avert controversy, but he would admit that the change itself was wrong.

When videos illustrating the differences between the JP and the EN/FR/DE cutscenes were posted online, some fans spoke out in protest. After internal discussion, it was decided that efforts would be made by the EN, FR, and DE LOC teams to bring Haurchefant's characterization gradually closer to that of the JP Haurchefant over the course of future updates. Moreover, the development team enacted a new policy that all cutscenes would be fundamentally the same, so that users across all regions would have more similar experiences.

However, as Yoshi-P stated, these decisions were made without consulting with the relevant parties, which resulted in a growing discrepancy that would culminate with patch 2.3's cutscenes.

As the individual who pushed for these changes, I would like to sincerely apologize to our fans, as well as Yoshi-P and our scenario team. It was never my intention to deprive our players of a memorable character or elaborate cutscenes, and to this day I deeply regret how I handled this situation.

He flat out admits that he deprived us of a "memorable character" by watering him down. The error is very clearly more than just the fact that it was a deviation from their normal processes, but also because the modification itself should not have been made. Inconsistencies of this nature in particular rise to the level of censorship, rather than mere localization.
He flat out states that his decision to push for the change was wrong, both in the sense that it was a deviation from procedure and that the change wasn't wrong to begin with, otherwise they wouldn't have made the decision to "make him closer to how he is supposed to be written.

He requests to make you his "personal steed" in the ENG script...

Also, the better version is, and will always be, the original version, the real version, i.e. the version we got in the JP translation.

[Saraide]

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...sions-of-FFXIV

No.

The 'wrong' thing was not only that, but also making the changes to begin with, which is something he explicitly apologized for. You're deliberately cherry-picking, and in that quote, he's simply referring to processes. Yes, it's implied somewhat that he believed that the change was warranted to avert controversy, but he would admit that the change itself was wrong.

When videos illustrating the differences between the JP and the EN/FR/DE cutscenes were posted online, some fans spoke out in protest. After internal discussion, it was decided that efforts would be made by the EN, FR, and DE LOC teams to bring Haurchefant's characterization gradually closer to that of the JP Haurchefant over the course of future updates. Moreover, the development team enacted a new policy that all cutscenes would be fundamentally the same, so that users across all regions would have more similar experiences.

However, as Yoshi-P stated, these decisions were made without consulting with the relevant parties, which resulted in a growing discrepancy that would culminate with patch 2.3's cutscenes.

As the individual who pushed for these changes, I would like to sincerely apologize to our fans, as well as Yoshi-P and our scenario team. It was never my intention to deprive our players of a memorable character or elaborate cutscenes, and to this day I deeply regret how I handled this situation.

He flat out admits that he deprived us of a "memorable character" by watering him down. The error is very clearly more than just the fact that it was a deviation from their normal processes, but also because the modification itself should not have been made. Inconsistencies of this nature in particular rise to the level of censorship, rather than mere localization.
He flat out states that his decision to push for the change was wrong, both in the sense that it was a deviation from procedure and that the change wasn't wrong to begin with, otherwise they wouldn't have made the decision to "make him closer to how he is supposed to be written.

He requests to make you his "personal steed" in the ENG script...

Yea it wasnt his intention to deprive anyone of memorable character. Thankfully he didnt and nothing of value was lost. I'm the one cherry picking? Yea okay sure buddy. You're not doing that whatsoever )

Also, the better version is, and will always be, the original version, the real version, i.e. the version we got in the JP translation.

I think you forgot your lunch at home.

Do you wanna maybe expand on your anime comment from your previous post a little bit? I would love to hear your ideas on that a bit more

[Telkira]

thinking about it. im done with this particular thread. the dude is obviously horny to have og haurchefant back and uses localization as his excuse then basically craps on westerners who have different values because they don't adhere to japanese values. end of this all. he either really stupid or just a bored troll. im not sure which but what he wants isn't attainable and i don't think he will ever face up to this fact.

You keep making this about 'JP values' when it's not about that. I'd be just as annoyed if his character was scrapped or changed for something else because, as I said before, I'm arguing for artistic and literary integrity, something that Western audiences pretend to care about until it becomes problematic. I genuinely think that nobody would be bothered as much if they just translated him as what he was in JP. The types of people who take issue with this type of thing tend to not think critically, they normally just eat up whatever is served to them and use communally-accepted conjecture to supplant an otherwise rational or critically-minded thought.
(Pardon my strawman, but I figured I'd throw that out for a change).

Do you wanna maybe expand on your anime comment from your previous post a little bit? I would love to hear your ideas on that a bit more

The same arguments being made against my position come from the 'subs vs. dubs' style of debate. It's literally the same argument but with a different coat of paint, but also an extrapolation of those who perceive anime tropes as 'problematic' yet continue to consume it. The first episode of 'Goblin Slayer' comes to mind, wherein even after people were warned of the anime's content, Crunchyroll still went ahead and adopted a gratuitous revisionist approach to things, or with the 'Dragon Maid' anime.
I feel like the same people who approved of such changes are the same people who approve of this, and just don't want to admit it. But who am I to make such a presumption? I've only been around these communities for over 10 years... Maybe this man of straw has some meat to him (by that I mean truth).

[Saraide]

I genuinely think that nobody would be bothered as much if they just translated him as what he was in JP.

And you are wrong.

You're attempts at strawmaning are hilarious. You need to get better at that. Bro, you are hard coping when you go on about artistic integrity. Please get a mirror. Why do you think the way it is currently in the game is not the artistic intent? The apology post got made and the dialogues are the way they are now since i dont even want to count how many years. Weebs really did get too comfortable with the word losing all bite. I am also extremely unsurprised the two animes you bring up are goblin slayer and dragon maid. Just some of the worst authors imagineable.

[Telkira]

And you are wrong.

You're attempts at strawmaning are hilarious. You need to get better at that. Bro, you are hard coping when you go on about artistic integrity. Please get a mirror. Why do you think the way it is currently in the game is not the artistic intent? The apology post got made and the dialogues are the way they are now since i dont even want to count how many years. Weebs really did get too comfortable with the word losing all bite. I am also extremely unsurprised the two animes you bring up are goblin slayer and dragon maid. Just some of the worst authors imagineable.

But I'm not wrong, and I'm unsure you even know what 'strawman' even means, considering "weeb" has been an ad hominem attack leveraged at me from the beginning.
I have every reason to assume that people wouldn't care if Haurchefant were translated and presented in English and other languages exactly how he is in Japanese. I never said that they wouldn't be bothered, just 'as much'. People, especially western consumers, tend to overstate their discomfort with sexual matters because those are the values which were instilled into them by their native culture, but the fact that such things are not even honored by native members of it and certainly not by Japanese media even remotely to the extent that Westerners do, it can safely be discarded or not highly considered when localizing to the west.

I mean, come on. Have you never seen a PG-13 rated movie or watched shounen anime? It's literally so tame and the sexually-charged nature of his characterization are such a minor component of the scenes themselves that it's mind-boggling how ANYONE could look at it and shrug it off. Your character isn't a virtualized projection of yourself, it's a customizable character in an MMORPG whose options are all pre-set options. I understand that it feels more 'personal' to some people, but focusing solely on that facet of the character is not how it's intended to be interpreted.

[Striker44]

snip

Note: Localization does not mean everything must stay exactly the same. Sometimes significant changes are made in the localization process. This is normal and a completely legitimate part of the process. As another example in FFXIV, a lot of the FATE descriptions and "flavor text" on items in Japanese is very straightforward, plain, and "serious." The EN localization changes the tone on many things to be amusing, punny, humorous in various ways. Do you think all of that humor should be removed because it doesn't exist in the JP version?

[Telkira]

Note: Localization does not mean everything must stay exactly the same. Sometimes significant changes are made in the localization process. This is normal and a completely legitimate part of the process. As another example in FFXIV, a lot of the FATE descriptions and "flavor text" on items in Japanese is very straightforward, plain, and "serious." The EN localization changes the tone on many things to be amusing, punny, humorous in various ways. Do you think all of that humor should be removed because it doesn't exist in the JP version?

I would genuinely prefer all the jokes to be exactly how they appear in the JP version, even if much of them wouldn't land. For those who don't get the puns or references that Koji Fox likes to vomit into the game, they're just names and flavor text. That says more about the prospect of relying on references as humor, if anything, but my point still largely stands.

But as for their localization approach? Most of it is largely based on making sure that no two regions get different experiences. Swapping out JP jokes and references for EN-centric ones is forgivable, but doing more than what is justified, and straying too far from the original intentions by the writers, worldbuilders, etc) like what the Haurchefant fiasco was isn't 'localization'. It's censorship, plain and simple.

I would love for SE to do something like this:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...btitles-option

[Burmecia]

I would genuinely prefer all the jokes to be exactly how they appear in the JP version, even if much of them wouldn't land.

Most people wouldn't prefer that.
FF14 is pretty big game.
It needs to reach the standards of triple A title, and appropriate style and quality of the written word seems like basic expectation from target market and requirement from, well, everyone.

Here we list some more challenges that you must be aware of and prepare for:

Literal translations are difficult: Translators do not translate literally in almost every language combination that involves languages of distant cultures. They must choose words in the target language that create the same meaning, but these words may mean different things by themselves. With Japanese and English, this is starker.

Certain words in Japanese have no direct or accurate translations in English. They can only be translated for sense, depending on the context of the source contents, and at least we need to learn about the history of the words since they came from Japanese original culture.

source

(Inspired by the thread I wanted to find something short and sweet to read about challenges of translating english into japanese. I know that the thread is about japanese to english localization. But it made me think of the media I have seen Japan localize less than stellarly from English. Those projects have been for children and teens, who tend to have media localized heavily for variety of reason.)

I also found this bit interesting, since if this is what Japan expects I'd hope they want to give this quality as well. Despite it's localization quirks, I am quite happy with FF14.

The Japanese market is also a quality-sensitive and mature market. They are used to consuming high-quality localized products. They also have limited English proficiency. It makes localization a near-mandatory step to even enter the market. And, you’d have to aim for perfection, no less, to begin to register on the Japanese consumer’s mind.