Length MSQ from all the expansions - it is getting insane

[CStrife912]

Nothing will really work with the current setup they have, they had their opportunity in Stormblood but decided it was better to continue the snowball. They even had an example of bad practices by looking at WoW, and continued to just keep copying bad practices. Meanwhile WoW actually evolved past the linear 'Themepark' disadvantages. It's practically more of a Sandbox than most MMOs these days.

It's funny because in ARR-HW, they actually tried to be different, and slowly fell into the trap of conformity and homogenization.

This all tracks with some studies comparing NA vs JP development practices, where JP businesses prefer standardization and long term commitments over moving to match trends and experimenting. Is what it is I guess, just kinda thought Yoshi was gonna be better, but SE pushed them into the same trap.

Blizzard as a business is running with 'Live-Service' these days, and it shows. They're quick to fail and quick to react. The quicker you are to fail and react, the quicker you are to succeed and find what works.
SE is failing to really understand what 'Live-Service' means in today's world, so any failure they have they never react to - They just let it fester and hold everything hostage on a 2 year cycles. They might still succeed, and if it works for them then whatever.

I wonder if a lot of those live service adapting techniques wont apply to 14 due to their content pool of resources being allocated long in advance and not having the team size that blizzard has to be able to adapt to those reactionary approaches. I do agree they definitely are reactionary as devs but then a lot of that is they are lucky their playerbase took that much of a beating till it finally clicked that maybe their direction isnt correct. The thing is from HW-EW they have consistent growth...playerbase has increased expansion to expansion...its easy to say they fell into comfort and their loop....but the players haven't bitten back enough to change it and to be honest EW is the only time some cracks have formed and whether 7.0 reacts to that is unknown at this minute. If it doesn't change and say the playerbase keeps steady or growing then what does that tell them honestly? I know player numbers are lower in this lul but a lot come back for 6.4 onwards for the long term into 7.0 plus the hype of fanfests will entice people to come back etc so il be curious how the next year goes.

[R041]

I wonder if a lot of those live service adapting techniques wont apply to 14 due to their content pool of resources being allocated long in advance and not having the team size that blizzard has to be able to adapt to those reactionary approaches. I do agree they definitely are reactionary as devs but then a lot of that is they are lucky their playerbase took that much of a beating till it finally clicked that maybe their direction isnt correct. The thing is from HW-EW they have consistent growth...playerbase has increased expansion to expansion...its easy to say they fell into comfort and their loop....but the players haven't bitten back enough to change it and to be honest EW is the only time some cracks have formed and whether 7.0 reacts to that is unknown at this minute. If it doesn't change and say the playerbase keeps steady or growing then what does that tell them honestly? I know player numbers are lower in this lul but a lot come back for 6.4 onwards for the long term into 7.0 plus the hype of fanfests will entice people to come back etc so il be curious how the next year goes.

Yeah, I mean XIV could obviously do some things correctly. I think playbase will stay steady for a bit just because of natural online game progression, and not necessarily because XIV is getting better. People are concerned that their reaction time to anything is just way too slow, especially this year when we're getting a lot of 'Live-Service' M/MO games. So imagine all of these other games coming out that actually offer a living, breathing experience and somehow managing to keep it fresh every week, or month.

It kinda feels like XIV is only a few bad decisions away from losing players and losing momentum. They're almost too safe. Not very exciting. It's like putting your stocks in Microsoft. Slow and steady, but not actually fun. So when that dips you know it'll take a very long time to get back up to pace.

I'd rather have a game that pisses me off half the time but fixes them on a monthly basis, than a game that pisses me off and takes 2 years to MAYBE resolve itself. You know? lol

I also kinda find it sad that even while 6.0 was releasing, we were saying "Yeah, but 7.0 will fix all these problems just wait" .. Most people aren't going to wait? Things need to change now. It's like all the changes they're doing over the past few years are just trying to scrape the bottom of the Single Player barrel, like they already gave up on the Live-Service race.

It's also pretty strange how XIV is still making dungeons and zones the way they are - For a business that's all about saving money, they really clutch the design philosophy revolving around throwing it away. Like what's their goal? How does Yoshi advocate spending money on them? "Yeah, so.. We have these zones and we're spending X amount of money on them." .. "Oh, what do players do in them? Uuhh.. Marketing and zone music!"

[CStrife912]

Yeah, I mean XIV could obviously do some things correctly. I think playbase will stay steady for a bit just because of natural online game progression, and not necessarily because XIV is getting better. People are concerned that their reaction time to anything is just way too slow, especially this year when we're getting a lot of 'Live-Service' M/MO games. So imagine all of these other games coming out that actually offer a living, breathing experience and somehow managing to keep it fresh every week, or month.!"

I mean I agree with what you say about other live service games coming out that could adapt to change much quicker. I don't feel like I can form an opinion on direction or if they are doing something too safe till the release of 7.0 It is easy to say variation of content Endwalker has approached things differently whether that is successfully is a matter of opinion (For me its brought good content types but it needs to invest in the long term viability of them)

If 7.0 and the 7.X series sticks the same then I agree there will be a decline or loss of players due to that staleness. I think it is impossible for them to course correct anything right this minute especially with their resources dedicated to say the visual update or duty support. We have spoken about them letting players start at an expansion but I think duty support could be a stepping stone to allow that. If we let people start from current, those that choose not to may struggle with queue times down the line so duty support allowing players to naturally progress through the game from the beginning will be a good thing for instance.

Like I said above I call certain users negative nancies and I know you yourself can sometimes come across that way but I at least know yours comes from a place of passion and concern and offer good rebuttal and not belittling haha. I am going to keep an eye on the market for the MMOs this year because Blue Protocol looks like a nice filler patch lul MMO to play (If its not infested with p2w)

[R041]

I mean I agree with what you say about other live service games coming out that could adapt to change much quicker. I don't feel like I can form an opinion on direction or if they are doing something too safe till the release of 7.0 It is easy to say variation of content Endwalker has approached things differently whether that is successfully is a matter of opinion (For me its brought good content types but it needs to invest in the long term viability of them)

If 7.0 and the 7.X series sticks the same then I agree there will be a decline or loss of players due to that staleness. I think it is impossible for them to course correct anything right this minute especially with their resources dedicated to say the visual update or duty support. We have spoken about them letting players start at an expansion but I think duty support could be a stepping stone to allow that. If we let people start from current, those that choose not to may struggle with queue times down the line so duty support allowing players to naturally progress through the game from the beginning will be a good thing for instance.

The reason I've been frustrated lately - And I think this is the best analogy I can come up with.. Is that for as long as myself and others have been playing (Like yourself), it feels like Yoshi is kinda pulling us all out to sea in a slow rowboat, and after so many years, we look back and we see there are people on that shore that want to reach us and have fun. But they either have to swim for 300 hours or pay for a jetski. Anecdotally, most people I know can't reach the end of that 300 hour stretch unless someone hypes them up. It's not naturally backed up by it's own brilliance. You basically have to give up on your friends and expect that the only people you'll probably play with in the end, are those that managed to make it by themselves somehow.

We also can't really comprehend how long 300 hours of single-player gameplay is, in a game promoted as an MMO. Or at least it's difficult for me to comprehend because I didn't play that way. I was rowed out slowly over that decade as it was an MMO, playing the MMO bits.

It's cool that they're going back and fixing old content, but what does that actually say about their priorities as an MMO? It probably says, they don't care and they're comfortable with charging for a single-player experience. They don't try to change how the MSQ plays, it's all been the same. Nothing gets 'better'. The story, arguably at some beats does get more interesting. But the MSQ ultimately never actually gets better mechanically. So they seem somewhat happy with their decision to just keep this 300 hour stretch of solo gameplay. It's weird, and it's dug itself into some strange deep crevice of linear themepark. Except the main attraction is a rollercoaster that rides on a rail at the same speed for hours, and sometimes does a loop or turn once every 5.

[CStrife912]

The reason I've been frustrated lately - And I think this is the best analogy I can come up with.. Is that for as long as myself and others have been playing (Like yourself), it feels like Yoshi is kinda pulling us all out to sea in a slow rowboat, and after so many years, we look back and we see there are people on that shore that want to reach us and have fun.

I like this bit of your analogy it is for the most part pretty accurate. It was always going to be difficult for them to tackle at some point but they have let it go on too long without any real intention of addressing it. I mean end of the day if they say they think it goes against the design intent I am not going to argue against it. If however they roundabout beat round the bush I would rather they stick to one answer or another.

In regards to fixing the old stuff...the game is 10 years old...combat design changes and their changes for the most part are so much better then what was there before. I would say more people are less inclined to get beyond ARR then everything else...ARR is still the big kick in the dick point in my opinion. I mean we have had more mechanical-based things in solo story duties or them adding npcs following you and offering context and expanding lore but you are right it isn't enough in the grand scheme of things and I would like them to do more with that.

Maybe them allocating more to animation allows them to make the msq less static in cutscenes for instance or increasing the memory allocation could allow for different styles of content with enemies on screen I'm spitballing ideas (Im quite bushed from the work week) but we are in alignment with change at least in some capacity needs to happen. I don't think I personally can hit a point when il unsub from the game...it would more be a case it will move from a main game to a secondary game. Which by all means isn't a bad thing but we all want to be spending more time in the world of the game we love.

Its why Blue Protocol has interested me if that comes out this year that is...I like playing Genshin here and there and it looks like Genshin and FF14 had a baby for the most part, but then I am torn because while I have done most of what I want in 14 currently. Max melded crafter/gatherers outside of their tools, done the PVP to 25 for the reward and done all gatherer relics and slowly began on crafter relics...also have 4 battle relics cause I don't use every class even though I have them all to 90. It has been refreshing to not have to keep playing every day and play some of my backlog. I have played through so many games and still managed to get on with bits in 14 and I thank it for that but I would never want that to be everyone's experience I know full well many what a daily reason to get into the game and I do hope sooner rather than later we get that answer.

[Lukha]

The reason I've been frustrated lately - And I think this is the best analogy I can come up with.. Is that for as long as myself and others have been playing (Like yourself), it feels like Yoshi is kinda pulling us all out to sea in a slow rowboat, and after so many years, we look back and we see there are people on that shore that want to reach us and have fun. But they either have to swim for 300 hours or pay for a jetski. Anecdotally, most people I know can't reach the end of that 300 hour stretch unless someone hypes them up. It's not naturally backed up by it's own brilliance. You basically have to give up on your friends and expect that the only people you'll probably play with in the end, are those that managed to make it by themselves somehow.

We also can't really comprehend how long 300 hours of single-player gameplay is, in a game promoted as an MMO. Or at least it's difficult for me to comprehend because I didn't play that way. I was rowed out slowly over that decade as it was an MMO, playing the MMO bits.

It's cool that they're going back and fixing old content, but what does that actually say about their priorities as an MMO? It probably says, they don't care and they're comfortable with charging for a single-player experience. They don't try to change how the MSQ plays, it's all been the same. Nothing gets 'better'. The story, arguably at some beats does get more interesting. But the MSQ ultimately never actually gets better mechanically. So they seem somewhat happy with their decision to just keep this 300 hour stretch of solo gameplay. It's weird, and it's dug itself into some strange deep crevice of linear themepark. Except the main attraction is a rollercoaster that rides on a rail at the same speed for hours, and sometimes does a loop or turn once every 5.

I mean, what do you want them to do, exactly? Truncate or remove parts of the story? In a story-driven game in a story driven series? I'm not sure what else you could want or expect, other than them adding a free instant-90 button which we all know they won't do because they charge money for that.

You currently have two options:
A. Play through the story
B. Pay to skip through the story.

Those of us who enjoy the story and go back to replay it occasionally are never gonna be in favor of anything that messes with that, and I, 'anecdotally' as you say, know plenty of new players who enjoy the story as-is and take the time to play through it even though some of them are a bit impatient to get to the 'end game'. Those who don't care about the story and just wanna skip straight to the pew pew have the option of paying to skip.
What's the possible third option that doesn't ruin the experience for others and doesn't lose SE skip money?

[R041]

I mean, what do you want them to do, exactly? Truncate or remove parts of the story? In a story-driven game in a story driven series? I'm not sure what else you could want or expect, other than them adding a free instant-90 button which we all know they won't do because they charge money for that.

You forget the part where I said they lost the opportunity. Yes, they dug this hole themselves, and there's not a lot they can do about it. I'm saying I wish they had the foresight to NOT have fallen into such a deep MSQ pit.

I'm still allowed to be frustrated, in-fact I'm more frustrated because it's like watching a slow moving train hit a car that had 8 years to move away from the tracks.

You know what I expected? The thing that most series writers and even original FF writers do, they section things off and make them relatively contained by allowing individual story progression with some or even no overlap. You build a world, you write stories within the world. You don't need to write 1 story for the whole world and every event being the same thread.

This is basically a problem only JP writers continue to throw themselves at every chance they get. They write stories that just go on, and on, and on, and on and they require reading from the start to understand anything. They're so linear in how they tell the stories, that everything is required reading. They also love to develop power creep because of the linear storytelling in how the main character(s) are the most important AND powerful person in the universe. Like it's hitting all of the JP Manga tropes today.

Final Fantasy itself was the king of self-contained stories, so we know they can do it. They just refuse to.

Stop acting like the only options are

A. Play through the story
B. Pay to skip through the story.

Can I get
C: Stop writing all systems and story linearly for a decade

Like put this into context of the game and story, we had to literally get to the point of power creep and exploration, travel through TIME and TO THE END OF THE UNIVERSE. WHILE BEING ABLE TO KILL ULTRA GOD. To MAYBE having a chance at a new story? Like wtf is going on you guys? At what point do you think the linear storytelling needs to just chill out? Like we went from DragonBall to DragonBall Super in 1/3rd of the time. And most people think Super was pretty extreme.

Everything reeks of 'Too many cooks DBZ'. It's pretty nuts, I really don't think they know what they're doing anymore. Or ever did tbh. We know they didn't know what to do with Ascians until 5.0, they admitted to that as a fact.

[Iscah]

Would be cool if they make the story optional (don't riot yet, i like the story despite EW flaws) and instead doing the MSQ stuff were unlocked by leveling like others games, as you level up, the content would be unlocked in the duty finder,

That would not be "cool" for a first-time player whose level has gotten even slightly higher than the story level. They wouldn't be able to run rouletttes without a risk of major spoilers, and even the duty list would be spoilerish.

[Lukha]

You know what I expected? The thing that most series writers and even original FF writers do, they section things off and make them relatively contained by allowing individual story progression with some or even no overlap. You build a world, you write stories within the world. You don't need to write 1 story for the whole world and every event being the same thread.

Can I get
C: Stop writing all systems and story linearly for a decade

Apparently you can get that in most series and even other FFs(though I don't know which, since all the FFs I've played have been pretty linear, it's pretty much a hallmark of the series), so why is it such a problem that this game isn't doing it?

Like, I'm not going to tell anyone to go away, but if something that is a defining factor to the series and this game frustrates you so badly, maybe you'd have a better time playing something else? Especially if most other writers out there don't do the specific things this one does that frustrate you?

Complaining about Final Fantasy being story-driven and linear is kind of like reading a BL manga and getting mad that there's an m/m romance, or complaining about a tournament arc in a shounen anime. You're choosing to consume something that is known for a particular feature and then getting mad when it has that feature.