The current state of the "MMORPG" FFXIV is unsustainable. Here's why

[Zaniel]

No, you're not going to insert the condition "and good" to narrow or minimize anything i list. So as I said "Old Skool" being: DnD online, Lotr: Online, obviously WoW, Terra, Runescape. To name a few.

I can definitely see the difference between those who actually play and enjoy "Old School" mmos and those who just play FF14 and claim they play MMO's.

Well the implication in your post is that people who play FF14 aren't "real" MMO players and that true hard core people would have played "actual" old school MMOs. The secondary implication seeming to be that the design of systems in these older MMOs was the real deal or "enjoyable" and FF14 is just pretending. Correct me if you meant something else.

I also thought, seeing as you're age-flexing, that you meant actual old school, you know, Everquest, DAOC, Lineage 1, Ultima, Anarchy Online, even EVE etc; the pre-WoW generation. (also, no need to bother quoting some obscure pre-EQ MMO off MMORPG.com, we get the point)

So if these older games were more real or more hardcore, or "better" than FF14 (or whatever definition you were implying), I'd like to know some specifics. What makes them better than FF14? Present your ideas.

Add: It's also a bit funny to talk about old school when the vast majority of the games we're talking about were made within a a couple of years of one another. From beginning to end this whole genre era is like 15 years old (looking at release dates from about 1999 to 2014) and most were made in a block from 2004-2011.

[GrumbleBeard]

I played this game pretty religiously with some friends since late ARR. Never any difficult content because I didn't have much time to spend doing that type of stuff, but we would run all the roulettes, try to cap tomes, all that. I genuinely like doing dungeons and stuff with my friends so being repetitive wasn't much of an issue. Last year, I got a job that kept me insanely busy so for that time all my old habits of playing this game died. Now, I am back to having time to play it and it's hard to bring myself to do it because it all just clicked how things have changed, in my opinion badly. Some thoughts-
1. For someone who doesn't do hard content, it is much easier now than it was in ARR to buy a crafted set of gear that will be perfectly fine for all content I could do so there is no reason to waste time getting normal mode raid gear, or alliance raid gear or tome gear (outside of looks, which I think gear design has been HORRIBLE in this game for awhile now ie: new gear is either too safe that it looks like existing gear or so weird it matches nothing and can't be mixed). I know crafted sets were always available, but were gated behind a much higher price that I certainly couldn't afford.
2. There is also no fun to be had running current roulettes like ex with it's whopping 2 dungeons to run for months at a time, or doing alliance raid roulette where you will get LoTA for the millionth time or have half your party leave at the start if it's not. You can do the lower level roulettes which at least have a ton of variety except that half the classes feel completely neutered at lower levels OR feel identical for like 40 levels straight.
3. It's also not fun playing most of the classes. I think back to doing big pulls with monk, thinking about using perfect balance to spam rock breaker for a bit, keeping an eye on my tp so I use the refresh at the right time, and being aware of my positions to aim circle aoe (if there are enough enemies for it to be worth it) or my cone aoe. Now I press 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 with some other buttons in between while fighting to keep my eyes open.
I kind of idolize Heavensward because it took the things I loved about ARR and expanded them. Every expansion feels like an expansion of story and zone and reduction of everything else. We can't do 3 classes too hard sorry, we can't do 3 dungeons too much work sorry, we can't model new gear for this thing have another reskin sorry etc etc

[Elucesta]

Well the implication in your post is that people who play FF14 aren't "real" MMO players and that true hard core people would have played "actual" old school MMOs. The secondary implication seeming to be that the design of systems in these older MMOs was the real deal or "enjoyable" and FF14 is just pretending. Correct me if you meant something else.

I also thought, seeing as you're age-flexing, that you meant actual old school, you know, Everquest, DAOC, Lineage 1, Ultima, Anarchy Online, even EVE etc; the pre-WoW generation. (also, no need to bother quoting some obscure pre-EQ MMO off MMORPG.com, we get the point)

So if these older games were more real or more hardcore, or "better" than FF14 (or whatever definition you were implying), I'd like to know some specifics. What makes them better than FF14? Present your ideas.

Add: It's also a bit funny to talk about old school when the vast majority of the games we're talking about were made within a a couple of years of one another. From beginning to end this whole genre era is like 15 years old (looking at release dates from about 1999 to 2014) and most were made in a block from 2004-2011.

I said "To name a few" that doesn't mean I wouldn't include those MMO's you mentioned as well. I've played those listed above, and tbh I enjoy eve online the most for its in depth in-game economical structure( but thats another conversation). Point is I'm not going to name all of them, but imncertsin you've gotten the point. And yes I will correct you because it seems you miss understand me.

When I say I can tell the difference, what i really mean is : There is nothing wrong with grind here and there, everything does not need to be overly accessible or easy ALL of the time. Inconvenience does not always equal bad. Conversely, too much convenience can lead to either laziness or lack of trying from gamers. IMO, there is a such thing as making an MMO or game in general TOO accessible/Convenient. For an MMO specifically, part of connecting with other players and forging bonds comes from challenges that are hard to overcome. Tbh, the normal combat content in this game is lacking, the overworld is pretty dead, fates are barely working anymore unless you specifically seek out a discord to hunt. There's not reason whatsoever to actually connect or chat with any other player. Bozja was good for that, Eureka was also good for that. It felt more in line to an mmo game. Now everything is so "safe" and "sterile" people can't even take a criticism in chat or else you'll be reported.

[Elucesta]

And yes people do work and have lives, etc. HOWEVER this is a game that people choose to play, I'm not advocating FOMO but sometimes people need accept that can't have everything all the time.

[AwesomeJr44]

This is the anti-capitalist message we all need to hear in 2023. Too many companies are trying to compete with our time these days. Blizzard, Smilegate, EA, Riot, etc. all want us to play their games all the time. Square Enix has the opposite view: we shouldn't play their game any more than necessary. Yoshida would agree that gaming is a vice that gets in the way of raising families and having real fun, not fake fun like MMOs offer.

This seems less like a valid point and more like coping by pretending a problem is intentional.

[DayHealer]

1)2) Trivialised encounters
Constant nerfing of dungeons, not only by power/potency creep. The very first red flag being Coincounter from Aurum Vale, then allowing rezzes in Titan and Sophia if people fall down the arena. The absolute, shameless nerfing of Orbonne Monastery and Thunder God Cid.

This so much. What was the point on making easier already easy content? Another example is The Vault, both the bosses and the mobs were nerfed so now the dungeon look like a joker of his former self.

[TaleraRistain]

I can give you WoW and ESO and to a much much lesser extent GW2 but RuneScape is pushing what MAYBE 300k? And lol everquest. You really used everquest.

EverQuest is getting its 30th expansion this year. It started in 1999.

EverQuest II is getting its 20th expansion this year. It started right around the same time as WoW in 2004.

They may not be reaching the player numbers they had in the past but they're still getting new content.

[TaleraRistain]

I've noticed a few think people are BLAMING casuals for the game becoming boring and I don't think that's the issue but I do feel players are overly requesting the devs to make the game TOO casual. Which is how we're in this mess. Now we have players saying "This isn't the same when I first joined and now finding it boring because it doesn't give me the fun it use to" and the point of this thread is to say "Stop making the game too easy and give us a reason to grind and have fun". It's great that players are enjoying the very casual aspect of the game but it ignores one side of the players and focuses too much on another. To me, EW feels like a STRONG repeat of SHB. It has a few new things but it's nothing that's really 'new'. Even Island Sanctuary is another rinse and repeat of gathering jobs but in a wider aspect. It's nothing truly game-changing. It strongly feel like we're being given the same dish over and over and the taste is becoming bland. So you can't blame players for feeling dull and wanting to request better changes to stay in the game they love.

So why are people blaming the players for giving feedback and not the developers for listening to it? There is so much vitriol against players for just giving feedback the same as any other players. "Casuals are ruining the game!" No they aren't. Casuals are giving feedback, saying what they do and don't like, and the devs decide if they listen or not. Put the responsibility where it belongs, on the developers and their choices. Otherwise it's just trying to silence an opposite opinion.

[Kyrj]

EverQuest is getting its 30th expansion this year. It started in 1999.

EverQuest II is getting its 20th expansion this year. It started right around the same time as WoW in 2004.

They may not be reaching the player numbers they had in the past but they're still getting new content.

Yeah I've seen their roadmap and their "expansions" so I'll just say what I did previously, lol.

[SieyaM]

I feel like people are really trying to sell Bozja as the incredible engaging piece of content that every loved every minute of when the reality is a lot of people did it for the relic because they just liked it better than the other options. The reality is both it and Eureka are FATE grinds with the setting changed and some extra bells and whistles added to it. Going into Zadnor now (I haven't been to the southern front in a long time) you just sit in the top of the map running the same 3 or 4 FATEs until a CE pops. There was also a time not very long ago the getting CLL to fill was near impossible before they ramped the mettle rewards up to insane levels, and that was necessary for relic progression so anyone looking to do it was just plain out of luck.