how did we at a place where diablo4 is more of an mmo that FF14?

[Atelier-Bagur]

And look where that mentality gets us in XIV in 2023. Nowhere. We're dull and spiraling into nothingness with bloated buttons that all feel the same. Congratulations.

WoW has managed to make it work to some degree, and there are MMO-esque ARPGs that are attempting to do it as well. It can be done. Fun should be priority over strict balance.

XIV devs need to realize that you can't balance everything perfectly and you need to focus on fun combat engagement over everything else.

Also you have no idea what the balance is like in D4, or what it'll be like in end-game. It's just an assumption based on D3.
With other ARPGs managing to pull it off, and D4 looking promising, the gap of complex action combat and MMORPG are closing in.

D4's world and systems feel more like an MMORPG than most MMOs to date. There are so many quests, you don't have to do them in any specific order depending on the region. They're all voice acted. There are.. A LOT.

https://youtu.be/DglGWF4LBnc

I honestly suggest you watch this video with a guy who actually knows what he's talking about. Diablo 4 looks a'ight but its nowhere near as the "shinin" example of an MMO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-l91GoAjkM

Also, why are we even bringing up Diablo? its not even an actual MMO lol

[R041]

I honestly suggest you watch this video with a guy who actually knows what he's talking about. Diablo 4 looks a'ight but its nowhere near as the "shinin" example of an MMO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-l91GoAjkM

Also, why are we even bringing up Diablo? its not even an actual MMO lol

Because the thread? Diablo wasn't traditionally an MMO. But D4 definitely feels like one.

I played the Beta, it felt like a living MMORPG and hit all the marks even from just Lv1-25. I maxed all classes and did all quests, cleared the whole map. It was almost a surreal experience, because it was like playing a living MMO CRPG with ARPG combat. Does that make sense? It's hard to explain. I say CRPG, because it has that same vibe with how all of the quests are setup and how they all kinda interact and work with the map, unlock new things, dungeons, parts of the environment. But ARPG because of the action combat specifically. It's not quite Divinity 2, but it was definitely inching toward it.

Also yeah, KRIPP has some legit criticisms - But these are things I believe can be worked out. But if they aren't? I'm still enjoying my time being able to run around in groups in a living world and doing world events and bosses.

Edit: Also, I'm mostly excited for the overall combination of systems D4 is presenting us. Balancing issues, new items, UI, whatever - That can be adjusted. But the underlying gameplay loop is exciting.
(As long as they don't cash shop the shit out of it)

[Atelier-Bagur]

Because the thread? Diablo wasn't traditionally an MMO. But D4 definitely feels like one.

I played the Beta, it felt like a living MMORPG and hit all the marks even from just Lv1-25. I maxed all classes and did all quests, cleared the whole map. It was almost a surreal experience, because it was like playing a living MMO CRPG with ARPG combat. Does that make sense? It's hard to explain. I say CRPG, because it has that same vibe with how all of the quests are setup and how they all kinda interact and work with the map, unlock new things, dungeons, parts of the environment. But ARPG because of the action combat specifically. It's not quite Divinity 2, but it was definitely inching toward it.

Also yeah, KRIPP has some legit criticisms - But these are things I believe can be worked out. But if they aren't? I'm still enjoying my time being able to run around in groups in a living world and doing world events and bosses.

I hope you realize it feels like a living world in that game atm because its the beta, where people are wanting to test out the game since its new. What about say the next couple of years? I wonder if you'll be singing the same tune once the honeymoon phase is over. I cant trust that kind of judgement in games. First impressions are well and good but..

[R041]

I hope you realize it feels like a living world in that game atm because its the beta, where people are wanting to test out the game since its new. What about say the next couple of years? I wonder if you'll be singing the same tune once the honeymoon phase is over. I cant trust that kind of judgement in games. First impressions are well and good but..

It's totally possible. But knowing I can sync all content in coop and run around with ease is good enough for me. Unfortunately XIV makes that difficult and doesn't provide enough open world coop opportunities.

Also considering how the zones are designed in Diablo 4, compared to XIV - They're dynamic and expand/retract depending on activity. So you're likely to see players through the world, unlike XIV where it's separated by individual servers. Also it's encouraged to play through different zones for their unlocks, quests, renown. So there's almost always a reason to go back unless you capped absolutely everything.

It would be AMAZING if XIV could just be 1 NA server, and each zone was only split up whenever it was at max capacity. Unfortunately we still live with an archaic MMO server infrastructure where we have to manually travel to different servers and DCs, so we never know what's actually poppin'.

I praised XIV when it released too. lol

[Atelier-Bagur]

It's totally possible. But knowing I can sync all content in coop and run around with ease is good enough for me. Unfortunately XIV makes that difficult and doesn't provide enough open world coop opportunities.

Also considering how the zones are designed in Diablo 4, compared to XIV - They're dynamic and expand/retract depending on activity. So you're likely to see players through the world, unlike XIV where it's separated by individual servers. Also it's encouraged to play through different zones for their unlocks, quests, renown. So there's almost always a reason to go back unless you capped absolutely everything.

It would be AMAZING if XIV could just be 1 NA server, and each zone was only split up whenever it was at max capacity. Unfortunately we still live with an archaic MMO server infrastructure where we have to manually travel to different servers and DCs, so we never know what's actually poppin'.

I praised XIV when it released too. lol

and even back then, it was only praised at the time in compared to its older 1.0 self. It didnt hold a candle to other MMO's if we're going to be quite honest here. I still think FFXIV isnt the best mmo out there but I think thats absolutely fine. No single MMO will ever be that "perfect MMO" and when people try to make one game be their main game well...we get people who lose perspective and start nitpicking about everything. Im glad Diablo IV is giving you what you're looking for, but its honestly not the game itself, its just you playing another game besides FFXIV thats giving you that satisfaction. Ive recently started getting back playing other games (currently trying out WoW Dragonflight) and this actually helped me enjoy FFXIV even more for what it is. It's giving me some wants for what I would like to see in FFXIV but at the same time, Im not gonna act like a pessimistic butthole about the game either.

[R041]

and even back then, it was only praised at the time in compared to its older 1.0 self. It didnt hold a candle to other MMO's if we're going to be quite honest here. I still think FFXIV isnt the best mmo out there but I think thats absolutely fine. No single MMO will ever be that "perfect MMO" and when people try to make one game be their main game well...we get people who lose perspective and start nitpicking about everything. Im glad Diablo IV is giving you what you're looking for, but its honestly not the game itself, its just you playing another game besides FFXIV thats giving you that satisfaction. Ive recently started getting back playing other games (currently trying out WoW Dragonflight) and this actually helped me enjoy FFXIV even more for what it is. It's giving me some wants for what I would like to see in FFXIV but at the same time, Im not gonna act like a pessimistic butthole about the game because it would feel irrational in a sense if Im just letting my "honeymoon" linger.

You may be 100% right and it might not work out - But I'm pretty hype, and I like the systems so far. It already has a leg up in how the server, zones, and level sync is structured.

But yeah, I could totally be back here for 7.0, and completely quit Diablo 4. I just can't ignore the MMO evolution is all.

Let's hope maybe down the line XIV can collapse all NA servers and have seamless dynamic scaling zones for everything instead.

And yet, FFXIV currently has the highest playerbase it's ever had. Perhaps because the devs actually do really know what they're doing and recognize the importance of adapting to the times. People in-game are plentiful and having an absolute blast. Casual gamers generally find being able to pick up a game and feel like they're making progress and contributing sufficiently while being able to make their own choices and play their way to be fun and inviting (aka the idea of balancing/generally homogenizing classes while giving each a bit of distinct flavor is the perfect move in today's gaming society). Balance leads to fun for the casual gamer, rather than a system where the community effectively locks them out of large chunks of content just for not playing the current meta build.

Okay, and WoW has a more complex class design with personalization with each build, and it still has more players than XIV.

Correlation does not imply causation. Just because class design is vanilla as fuck, doesn't mean it's a better game. XIV popularity is a complicated subject, it doesn't mean it does everything correctly. Nor does it mean WoW does everything correctly.

[R041]

...

Also, you know I've been crying about wanting these things forever - You've read my bullshit. Then Diablo goes and makes a godamn MMO with the things I've been asking for, AND makes it feel like D2.

So I can't contain my hype. You understand. lol

[Jojoya]

Because the thread? Diablo wasn't traditionally an MMO. But D4 definitely feels like one.

First, I'm genuinely glad to hear you're enjoying the game. I might consume some of my dusty Battle.net balance and try it out once it's released.

But what makes it feel like more of a MMORPG to you than FFXIV does?

A lot of players have a misconception about what defines a game as a MMORPG. Nothing I've seen about Diablo IV screams "MMORPG" to me. It's still looking like an ARPG with some coop features giving you a chance to encounter other players. Perhaps there's some other element I haven't seen detailed yet.

To me it seems like a lot of the reason some don't want to think of FFXIV as a MMORPG is because group play is optional when they want it to be forced. That doesn't make for a good game experience.

Does D4 force you into group play, or does it leave it optional as well?

If you're talking about the large number of players you're currently seeing online, don't forget it's a heavily publicized beta test where players are getting their first look at the game on a limited number of servers. It also sounds like they're putting more major bosses into the normal zones instead of in the dungeons as in the past. That's going to draw more players into those zones for now. How will things look after release? We'll have to wait and see.

Are there other things making it feel more like a MMORPG to you?

The important part is that you've found a game you're enjoying regardless of the type of game it is. Too many place importance on the type of game instead of whether they're enjoying it.

[R041]

So what? It's still Diablo and at its core it is a far different game from Final Fantasy. Besides, people always run off to a new game when it launches and come back here when the honeymoon is over.

What does Diablo vs Final Fantasy have to do with anything? XIV is a Single Player game because FFVII? See where that kind of discussion leaves us? Final Fantasy is still an RPG! Warcraft is still an RTS!

...

I don't know if I said it's more of an MMO, that's mostly the thread title from someone else. But the systems definitely compete. If I did say that, I don't think that's 100% true - But the D4 server infra is decades ahead of XIV as is presented.

I think what definitely helps it, and I could be wrong in a year. Is that each zone is elastic, so where XIV has Region locked characters, and server locked zones. D4 is elastic and cross-play 100%. So I could walk to a zone that you'd think would be dead, but because it's elastic and spans all of NA, there may be players running around there doing content. So HYPOTHETICALLY it should never really feel dead. XIV at times can feel like a single-player game because everything is so cut off from each other, and it can be difficult to find that community unless you try hard to dig for it. D4 so far feels like everything kinda naturally falls into place as far as an MMO is concerned. You just go do your thing and it's got players also doing that thing.

It's like if you could just walk a screen over and seamlessly be in Bozja or Eureka, and it's an instance that spans all of NA. Hopefully that makes sense? No queue, no loading, and no server hopping. They just exist and there are players there because it doesn't compete with itself as a zone.

I don't know if you can just look at D4 and say "Oh, it just has more coop" - You'd have to play it to understand that it's legitimate competition in this space. It has level sync, quest sync, MSQ sync, and the world feels lived in. The world and it's inhabitants feel busy and engaged. Could be because everything is voice acted, and they all have something for you to do. Then you run around with other players doing the same. Luckily this Friday is the Open Beta, so you can give it a shot. We can come back here and discuss.

D4 doesn't force you into group play, but players definitely exist in the same world. You can always run off and do something else, you don't have to be doing the same quest, and you don't have to be queued into the same dungeon. You can just exist and play solo.

When I play XIV, I don't walk around zones and go "This is so refreshing, there's so much to do, so many people to see, and so many interactable NPCs and things!" - No, nothing happens. There are no dungeon entrances or barely anything to do outside of a shit FATE that just feels horrible to do. Can't even kill ranked mobs because the train will be pissed. Everything is so pre-designed in XIV. It all basically plays the game for you.

People say Eureka and Bozja feel like more of an MMO than normal XIV play, and that's mostly because it's such a contained zone with so much to do. That's basically what I'm saying here. The D4 world so far is basically Eureka/Bozja but on a large scale, seamless, and elastic to prevent dead servers and zones from existing. Unless D4 itself is dead, or somehow that content is completely dull.

Also not necessarily MMO related, but it even has a better transmog system than WoW. Where you unlock new glam just by trashing old gear, and can always dye it.

And while playing it, it's very obvious it's using similar zone systems to WoW. It basically pulled all the MMO tech straight from WoW. lol

The difference is that, in XIV - I have to try and find players. Where in D4, I can't get away from players unless I try. Even in a new XIV expac, on release day. I only see people huddled up on MSQ spots. Not running around the zones.

So you tell me. lol