Healer Survey:

[Renathras]

...

Yes, but a lot are saying what I'm saying:

- They're satisfied with Healers THEMSELVES (or some of the Jobs, if not all), the issue is encounter design.
- Many are neutral and some don't want more DPS actions, but want more of a focus on healing, including GCD healing, and many want fewer and less powerful oGCD heals so more GCDs are spent healing, and less focus on healing plans.
- Most don't want a DPS rotation, or a "rotation" (even Tank rotation) at all, and seem to want situational use DPS buttons.
- Most who want some change want it to be more healing focused, not damage focused, and many who wouldn't mind more damage buttons are okay with not having more if the healing is addressed.
- Encounter design, encounter design, encounter design - this seems to actually be the biggest complaint.

This has been what I've been saying. If you've been saying the same thing, then it would be strange for so many people to attack my position if it's also their own...

Further, this would also strongly support my "4 Healers" position, as there are quite a few people that don't want more damage buttons, and a goodly number seem to think WHM and SGE are fine as they are and only SCH and AST (and encounter design) needs changing. This has literally been my position here for months...

For a while, the prevailing view here seems to be "the options are more healing or changing encounters or more DPS; they tried more healing in Abyssos and everyone hated it, there's no way to change encounters (insert argument about how all content must backdate across all encounters in the game for unspecified reason), so the solution must be more DPS buttons."

I've made different proposals, including less powerful/frequent oGCDs to require GCDs be used for healing more often, changing some (but not all) of the Jobs to give them more either buffing/support options or a few more damage options (SCH being the one I've leaned most heavily to giving more DPS buttons to), and changing boss encounters themselves to be more like Abyssos, but where it's on the Healers only, not where the Healers are reliant on the DPSers for mitigation checks.

Note that THESE seem to be the most common themes emerging, not "we can't change encounters and everyone hates more healing, so more damage". That seems to not be the most common position expressed at all. Many seem to actually LIKE the more healing in Abyssos and using GCDs for healing, and even dislike healing plan setups, something the posters here seem to think is the best part of the role.

.

While the appraisal of the overall situation you guys seem to have generally the right of - AS HAVE I; to the point it's weird to me I get so much flack here since we apparently agree on so much - the solutions being proposed and the feeling for more damage vs more healing you guys seem not to be in tune with a lot of the respondents...

...

Yeah, the issue is I want to avoid my own bias tainting the results as well. Think ill of me if you will, I consider things like this sacred and want the best results possible, and I'm aware of the dangers to pollsters in "tilting" results to their desired outcomes. This is why I altered Ty's initial questions (and used his as the basis instead of creating my own) so that the results would be as hopefully neutral as possible.

For example, if someone says they're satisfied with WHM but not the other three and not with encounter design, this sounds similar to my own position, but I don't want to automatically say it is if there's more nuance there. I want to make sure I'm accurately representing THEIR position, since I think that's the best way overall to get a good picture of reality, which is what I want: To see what people really think.

I fully know my position is alone, though I don't know passed that if it's a majority or minority, but I want an accurate accounting, and the caveat that the results will likely be tilted SLIGHTLY to the negative in any case, as Ty pointed out, so whatever the end result is, a slightly more positive of "that" will be the true feeling of the community as a whole.

[Silver-Strider]

- They're satisfied with Healers THEMSELVES (or some of the Jobs, if not all), the issue is encounter design.
- Many are neutral and some don't want more DPS actions, but want more of a focus on healing, including GCD healing, and many want fewer and less powerful oGCD heals so more GCDs are spent healing, and less focus on healing plans.
- Most don't want a DPS rotation, or a "rotation" (even Tank rotation) at all, and seem to want situational use DPS buttons.

- Even the ones that state they're satisfied with some of the jobs still say that the jobs get boring once a fight is learned.
- Many more say that adding some more DPS options doesn't hurt either.
- I have seen 9 people in both threads say this total. In comparison, about 18 say a Tank rotation would suffice with the rest being indifferent to it. I don't see how that's "most"

Also, it's not just the encounter design they argue about.
There's a few that argue that job design is also lacking.

"WHM, SGE, and SCH theoretically have a resource based gameplay loop, but compared to say RDM it's child's play. Give us more ways to build and spend our classes unique resources. That's what makes each class feel different: WHM, SGE, and AST play the exact same when you're down synced to before cards/lillies/whatever the SGE orbs are called."
" I'm actually a bit surprised it doesn't have even a bit more complex DPS mechanics. I was expecting it to be like a Discipline Priest in WoW which has to do damage to heal and spread shields. Now it's just a WHM with Shields.." In regard to SGE.
'I'd love for these jobs to have something, ANYTHING beyond their single stupid *censored* nuke (which was also homogenized, AST was the one with the fast main nuke, why give that to everyone including megablocks mage for no *censored* reason)."

Among others.

[ty_taurus]

- They're satisfied with Healers THEMSELVES (or some of the Jobs, if not all), the issue is encounter design.
- Many are neutral and some don't want more DPS actions, but want more of a focus on healing, including GCD healing, and many want fewer and less powerful oGCD heals so more GCDs are spent healing, and less focus on healing plans.
- Most don't want a DPS rotation, or a "rotation" (even Tank rotation) at all, and seem to want situational use DPS buttons.
- Most who want some change want it to be more healing focused, not damage focused, and many who wouldn't mind more damage buttons are okay with not having more if the healing is addressed.
- Encounter design, encounter design, encounter design - this seems to actually be the biggest complaint.

I'm very curious as to how you came to that conclusion seeing that multiple responses specifically mention using tank rotations as a basis rather than DPS rotations as posed in the question. No one is asking for DPS rotations on the same level as the DPS role, and naturally, no one thinks its necessary or realistic, though several would still be completely fine with that, or they're interpreting the question as less literal than as its presented.

There seem to be a fair amount of people who are dissatisfied and a similar amount of people who are satisfied, but what's important to note is the group that is satisfied is almost unanimously open to getting more DPS actions if not flat out encouraging it. Sure there is specification that it depends on what DPS actions you add or how many, but isn't that exactly what we've been saying here? Create more variety for healing downtime for all healers with some being more complex and others being more forgiving, so long as all of them have more to do when no healing is needed and that all of them are given more skill expression?

The overwhelming verdict so far is that most either want more DPS, are open to it, or specify that as long as it doesn't make the jobs feel bloated. One person mentioned said it's fine but doesn't believe it will fix the issue with healers. One person is concerned about what that means for harder content, and there's another person who seems to share a lot in common with you. They main WHM, but also play SCH and SGE, and think WHM shouldn't change but the other 3 could, and even their writing style is strikingly similar to your own. They mentioned that healers would be worse if they changed from where they are now. But those two examples seem to be it as far as opposition to DPS is concerned, at least on the discussion thread. There are even a few who pointed out wanting to see more actions on WHM specifically.

[IDontPetLalas]

I'm very curious as to how you came to that conclusion seeing that multiple responses specifically mention using tank rotations as a basis rather than DPS rotations as posed in the question. No one is asking for DPS rotations on the same level as the DPS role, and naturally, no one thinks its necessary or realistic, though several would still be completely fine with that, or they're interpreting the question as less literal than as its presented.

There seem to be a fair amount of people who are dissatisfied and a similar amount of people who are satisfied, but what's important to note is the group that is satisfied is almost unanimously open to getting more DPS actions if not flat out encouraging it. Sure there is specification that it depends on what DPS actions you add or how many, but isn't that exactly what we've been saying here? Create more variety for healing downtime for all healers with some being more complex and others being more forgiving, so long as all of them have more to do when no healing is needed and that all of them are given more skill expression?

The overwhelming verdict so far is that most either want more DPS, are open to it, or specify that as long as it doesn't make the jobs feel bloated. One person mentioned said it's fine but doesn't believe it will fix the issue with healers. One person is concerned about what that means for harder content, and there's another person who seems to share a lot in common with you. They main WHM, but also play SCH and SGE, and think WHM shouldn't change but the other 3 could, and even their writing style is strikingly similar to your own. They mentioned that healers would be worse if they changed from where they are now. But those two examples seem to be it as far as opposition to DPS is concerned, at least on the discussion thread. There are even a few who pointed out wanting to see more actions on WHM specifically.

Agreed with all of the above. I can quote some outliers, such as the odd person who said that he/she like to go on their healer alt when they felt like being lazy, just as I can also quote the other extreme who are open to the complex DPS rotation option. My general impression is that most however fall towards that "sure, add in more DPS options but if I want complex DPS exactly as DPS , which makes me need to focus on it as a DPS, I'll play a DPS".

Which is why I would be curious to segment the respondents (all optional) but hopefully some people would answer them all :
- are you a healer main?
- if so how long have you been healing?
- what content do you heal?
- which healers have you leveled?
- what levels are your healers?

[Iedarus]

You don't even need to be a longtime veteran to know healing gameplay is highly questionable compared to other roles. Unless the devs want to change all the content to have more chaotic incoming damage, giving healers more dps options is the best thing to do. Though now I do fear they will give maybe one extra damage button on each healer and call it mission accomplished given how tone deaf they have been with job design in general.

[Deceptus]

I'm very curious as to how you came to that conclusion seeing that multiple responses specifically mention using tank rotations as a basis rather than DPS rotations as posed in the question. No one is asking for DPS rotations on the same level as the DPS role, and naturally, no one thinks its necessary or realistic, though several would still be completely fine with that, or they're interpreting the question as less literal than as its presented.

Because when you boil it down, tank rotations are basically what we have now as healers. We just have fewer buttons to do it.

Tank: Do your special tank attack every 30s, 123 for the remainder, could easily be condensed to 1 button (certain mods do this).

Healer: 1 dot every 30s, 11111111111 for the remainder.

[ty_taurus]

Because when you boil it down, tank rotations are basically what we have now as healers. We just have fewer buttons to do it.

Tank: Do your special tank attack every 30s, 123 for the remainder, could easily be condensed to 1 button (certain mods do this).

Healer: 1 dot every 30s, 11111111111 for the remainder.

You're suggesting that Dosis III, Eukrasian Dosis III, Phlegma III, and Toxikon II are in some way effectively the same as...
,
Keen Edge > Brutal Shell > Solid Barrel, Lightning Shot, Blasting Zone, Burst Strike, Sonic Break, Rough Divide, Gnashing Fang > Savage Claw > Wicked Talon, Bow Show, Continuation, No Mercy, Hypervelocity, and Double Down?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Because when you boil it down, tank rotations are basically what we have now as healers. We just have fewer buttons to do it.

Tank: Do your special tank attack every 30s, 123 for the remainder, could easily be condensed to 1 button (certain mods do this).

Healer: 1 dot every 30s, 11111111111 for the remainder.

They are imho are not synonymous.

WAR's 1-2-3A/B, GNB & DRK's 1-2-3 generates resources. PLD's 1-2-3 unlocks Atonement & Divine Might (in which Atonement also breaks combo). In its simplest form they're already affecting next decision(s) whereas all healers do are pressing 1 button ad nauseam; there's simply no comparing between the two.

[brancinaed]

Yes, but a lot are saying what I'm saying:

[...]

This has been what I've been saying. If you've been saying the same thing, then it would be strange for so many people to attack my position if it's also their own...

Further, this would also strongly support my "4 Healers" position, as there are quite a few people that don't want more damage buttons, and a goodly number seem to think WHM and SGE are fine as they are and only SCH and AST (and encounter design) needs changing. This has literally been my position here for months...

For a while, the prevailing view here seems to be "the options are more healing or changing encounters or more DPS; they tried more healing in Abyssos and everyone hated it, there's no way to change encounters (insert argument about how all content must backdate across all encounters in the game for unspecified reason), so the solution must be more DPS buttons."

I've made different proposals, including less powerful/frequent oGCDs to require GCDs be used for healing more often, changing some (but not all) of the Jobs to give them more either buffing/support options or a few more damage options (SCH being the one I've leaned most heavily to giving more DPS buttons to), and changing boss encounters themselves to be more like Abyssos, but where it's on the Healers only, not where the Healers are reliant on the DPSers for mitigation checks.

Note that THESE seem to be the most common themes emerging, not "we can't change encounters and everyone hates more healing, so more damage". That seems to not be the most common position expressed at all. Many seem to actually LIKE the more healing in Abyssos and using GCDs for healing, and even dislike healing plan setups, something the posters here seem to think is the best part of the role.

[...]

Do you think bosses and minibosses should be doing more auto attack damage?

Dreadnaught are chunky for tanks. I think if tanks aren't taking much damage there won't be much GCD healing. I really enjoy healing heavy damage on tanks, though it can look scary. Many people complain about this type of unavoidable damage. However if much damage is avoidable then in good groups healers are left with little to do but press damaging buttons!



Instead of giving healers more damaging buttons I like the idea of damage buffs on shorter cooldowns. 120 seconds for Chain Stratagem feels lame after a while, because it's really not that strong. The cooldown should be 60 seconds. I feel giving healers more supporting tools plays into the role better.


The role action for healers Repose is unused except rarely in dungeons and deep dungeons. It could be removed in favor of a damage buff for all healers!

[Renathras]

- Even the ones that state they're satisfied with some of the jobs still say that the jobs get boring once a fight is learned.

SOME do.

Many do not, actually.

- Many more say that adding some more DPS options doesn't hurt either.

MANY do.

Many do not, though.

- I have seen 9 people in both threads say this total. In comparison, about 18 say a Tank rotation would suffice with the rest being indifferent to it. I don't see how that's "most"

Still working through the numbers and working out the best way to parse it right now. I'm starting by going through them all and marking their first question answer as Dissatisfied (includes Very), Very Dissatisfied (for further comparison), Satisfied (includes Very), Very Satisfied, and Neutral Satisfaction (many of these lean one way or the other, so trying to work that out without just having a dozen categories)

I'm skimming the other answers as I go, but focusing on the first one and then I'll go through and do the same for the second one, but I've already seen a handful say they'd quit Healers if given a rotation at all, and several say they don't want any additional DPS buttons. Many who DO want additional DPS buttons don't want ones they use all the time. The common word for that is "Situational", and examples are things like Aero 3 where you don't use it in single target at all (per the proponents) and it just gives you a second button to mix up in AOE. Very few actually say they want a DPS Job level rotation, and most of those even say it would not go over well. More than that say they would be okay with a Tank level rotation, and when I get to tabulating that we'll see which is bigger, but they don't seem to be an outright majority, either.

Honestly, the "4 Healers" solution is looking more and more fitting given the data...

Also, it's not just the encounter design they argue about.
There's a few that argue that job design is also lacking.

I didn't say it was. But even there the answers are not concentrated. For example, there are SEVERAL posts saying WHM and SGE are fine right now but SCH and AST need work, with many saying AST needs to be made SIMPLER and SCH needs to have Energy Drain stop consuming AF. Then you have the ones that think AST is the only fun one. I'm working through the best way to mark that down, but I think I'm going to have an "Enjoy JOB" "Dislike JOB" bracket tallying those results.

Among others.

I mean, I can quote individual people holding the contra position as well. But that doesn't do us any good since individual posts are anecdotes. What we need to see is the whole picture, hence tabulating the whole dataset.

When I'm done with it, I'll lay out exactly how I did it - so if anyone has an issue with bias or supposed bias on my part or how I'm doing it, they can bring it up then; I genuinely DO want to be fair and accurate about this - but don't get lost in anecdote. I could easily pull out three quotes saying they want Healers unchanged, as I've read that many (at least 3, I think 5) already saying just that.

I'm very curious as to how you came to that conclusion

At the time I posted that, the ones I had read through had that leaning.

Now there are too many for me to be sure either way, hence the Excel Spreadsheet I'm working through.

When I get to the DPS rotation part, I think the five categories (based on what I've seen so far) are going to be:

No change, Add 1 or 2 abilities/DoTs, Add a Tank or SMN level rotation (SMN has been mentioned a time or two), Add a full DPS rotation.

I might have to break this out by Job a bit, since A LOT of people feel like SCH should get its old DoTs back but A LOT also feel that WHM (and quite a few SGE) are good and should be unchanged. In fact, SCH needing to be changed seems to be the one thing that just about everyone agrees on.

Which is why I would be curious to segment the respondents (all optional) but hopefully some people would answer them all :
- are you a healer main?
- if so how long have you been healing?
- what content do you heal?
- which healers have you leveled?
- what levels are your healers?

While there is the odd really short post that doesn't even touch on the questions, I'm glad I went back and added the segment about mentioning if they were healer mains, omni-mains, or healer when necessary kinds of players. That prompt opens the door to where many are saying the content types they do in the long form responses, which I think is good, even if not everyone's doing it.

You don't even need to be a longtime veteran to know healing gameplay is highly questionable compared to other roles. Unless the devs want to change all the content to have more chaotic incoming damage, giving healers more dps options is the best thing to do. Though now I do fear they will give maybe one extra damage button on each healer and call it mission accomplished given how tone deaf they have been with job design in general.

Please feel free to take part in the survey and add your voice there.

I will say that what SEEMS to be a pretty widely held position IS just adding an extra button...so if the Devs did that, they wouldn't be tone deaf as they'd actually be doing what a substantial number of people seem to want...

Because when you boil it down, tank rotations are basically what we have now as healers. We just have fewer buttons to do it.

Tank: Do your special tank attack every 30s, 123 for the remainder, could easily be condensed to 1 button (certain mods do this).

Healer: 1 dot every 30s, 11111111111 for the remainder.

Agreed. I've made this argument before, comparing WHM to WAR and seeing that they're VERY similar (in single target) if you ignore WAR's 1-2. You have both Storm's Path (Glare) and a 30 sec reapply equivalent of Storm's Eye (Dia), you have an oGCD like Upheaval (Assize), you have a self-damage boost like Inner Release (Presence of Mind), and you have a big hitting attack like Primal Rend (Misery). Other than Fell Cleave (which is another form of spammed attack), and Infuriate (if WHM had a Rhizomata for Lilies, it would be that), WHM maps almost directly to WAR's single target rotation. And about that to its single target one, since you have Holy in place of Mythril Tempest, Assize in place of Orogeny, and Misery in place of Primal Rend, leaving Steel Cyclone (like Fell Cleave). The Infuriate boosted versions are just reskins, not separate buttons or abilities, and people here have already said they don't want just a flashier spell effect on the same button to give those extra points.

It IS simpler, but it's not MUCH simpler as WAR is doing the same thing with extra steps - and they aren't riveting extra steps. Pressing 1 then 2 before your 3/4 doesn't exactly spice up the gameplay for everyone. For some people, it does, but many consider that the same thing, as the PvP versions show they could be replaced with one button and no one would be the wiser.

...

I'm not CERTAIN, but it seems the majority responding to the survey kind of agree - they want more incoming, unavoidable damage, and many of them seem to want more SUPPORT/BUFF skills, not DPS buttons, per se.

But that's just me skimming through them as I go. I'm trying to tabulate the data into an Excel sheet, and part of the challenge in long for questions is figuring out exactly how to classify the answer. "I'm extremely satisfied with WHM, I kinda like SGE, SCH is clunky and I really don't like AST." "Okay...how do I classify THAT?!" XD

Which is why I'm trying to develop logical subcategories like the Like/Dislike Job section and so on. Get some real useful data. That's my goal, anyway.