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Thread: Healer Survey:

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  1. #1
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
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    Noah Orih
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    Faerie
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    Sage Lv 90
    If anyone's trying to do the polls now, I've not really "officially" posted them. I am making some adjustments, but thanks for the notes. I believe they allow you to edit you submissions. I also added in a 1 submission which requires google login. I don't think that gives me access to emails, but I can remove it if it does. But the goal is one submission per person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    Minor quibble: You have to pick a "more" category. The question doesn't let you submit without it. Even if there's a Job where you don't want any more actions, respondents aren't allowed the opportunity to NOT say they want more. There should be a "no new actions" and a "reduce/consolidate actions" choice. I know a lot of people feel like SCH and especially AST have too many and need a reduction.

    I like the basic idea, though. If you could make those changes, I'd post them into my survey OPs too to see if we could get more participants that way.
    We always get some type of new actions in new expansions, so there will always be "something" added, but I added the option for "other" which you I think can write in "ability upgrades" or something to that effect if you don't think a job needs new buttons per say. I also am adding a "What could <insert job here> have less of" option that also has an "other" as well as a "Nothing needs removing" option. The reason I want those to be required is to ensure that numbers are collected for anyone who doesn't believe there needs to be culling, for example.

    Don't add it to that reddit thread though, please. I'm making these for every job and going to post them all in one place, so it wouldn't make much sense to have the other roles involved in that reddit thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allegor View Post
    There's a rather fatal flaw on your polls Ty. There's an * on the question about challenging content, meaning casuals like myself are forced to lie to even submit the form. I put a 1 because I loathe high end content either way, but that has little to do with the current state of healers.
    I made those first 3 questions optional now.
    (1)
    Last edited by ty_taurus; 03-20-2023 at 06:38 PM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Icecylee's Avatar
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    Rieanna Cohen
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    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    tbqh I feel like the fourth question using the term 'rotation' was hella loaded, especially with the way most people seem to have interpreted it (ie. breakable combos and long ability strings that MUST be done in a specific order every single time or they don't work at all), rather than something that would actually make sense like priority and/or proc systems, or resource builder/spender systems. Kinda way too late to change how the question was presented tho
    (5)

  3. #3
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
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    Noah Orih
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    Added a thread here in general with those surveys for all jobs.
    (9)

  4. #4
    Player
    Sebazy's Avatar
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    Sebazy Spiritwalker
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    Ragnarok
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    White Mage Lv 90
    Honestly the only issue I have with the survey questions is #4. That’s really badly phrased and far too open to interpretation. I tried to clarify on my response but it’s easily a very negative or positive Q depending on how it’s understood.
    (5)
    ~ WHM / badSCH / Snob ~ http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/871132/ ~

  5. #5
    Player
    Allegor's Avatar
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    Red Rider
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    Hyperion
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    Sage Lv 90
    Yeah, question 4 seems a little... disingenuous? I mean, it's already been left crystal clear NOBODY wants a full on dps rotation, simply more to do than 111111111, but it's worded as if you want people to say no to more dps spells period. As if just adding Aero III back would cause us arthritis.
    (3)
    Last edited by Allegor; 03-20-2023 at 10:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Allegor View Post
    Can't increase healing requirements because "it'd stress the newbies"
    Can't increase dps options either because "it'd stress the newbies"
    so apparently the only option that doesn't "stress the newbies" is either pressing 1211111111, or do nothing at all.

  6. #6
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
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    Ren Thras
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    Famfrit
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    Okay, the issue with Question 4 is that if you say "a few more DPS buttons", that's highly open to interpretation. It also downplays the change as "just a few" or "just a little", where people reading it may think anything between "an extra DoT" to "a Tank-like rotation" to "one of the simpler DPS rotations" (SMN, DNC) to "a moderately involved DPS Job rotation", entirely based on interpretation.

    But I thought Ty's original question 3 had merit, it just needed some kind of boundary. How much?

    So question 4 was created to put an upper boundary on question 3 and draw a line there. Because there are A LOT of people who will say they want another DPS button, but VERY FEW who will say they want a full on DPS rotation. It also invites respondents (as many did from the responses) to say "Well, I don't want a full on DPS Job rotation, but something like a Tank rotation would be good", meaning it sorts the answers into a gradient and really gets at people want. The answers I've gotten between the two questions range from "less DPS buttons" (there were either one or two people saying that was their preference), "no change" (several of those, chiefly for WHM and SGE), "add 1 situational button", "add 1-3 buttons in a more general sense, but not a rotation", "add a tank level rotation", "add a SMN level rotation", and "add a full DPS Job level rotation" (there were 4 or 5 saying that; though they did acknowledge that was just their preference but they felt it would probably be bad for the game).

    Ty's original question was trying to "prove" that people would keep playing Healers anyway with changes, but that's not asking people what they WANT, that's asking people what they'll PUT UP WITH. But in the end, having both questions allows people to really flesh out their answers, which is actually giving us a far better view of how they feel on the topic. There are, in fact, some people saying they WOULD like a DPS Job level rotation on a healer (some suggested SGE, with the Kardia effect, could make such a thing work), but most of those are acknowledging it would be bad for all Healer Jobs to have one.

    EDIT: That is, in fact, there ARE some people that DO want a full on DPS Job rotation. So that is a position held by a segment of the community, and I think it's good that the results reflect that.
    (0)
    Last edited by Renathras; 03-21-2023 at 04:32 AM. Reason: Marked with EDIT

  7. #7
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
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    Noah Orih
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    On question 4, I would've gone with referencing tank DPS rotations instead of rotations on the level as the DPS role. I have never seen a single person claim they wanted the healers to have DPS rotations on the same level of action volume or complexity as any of the DPS classes. I think you asked before about if people here would enjoy a healer that had SMN's DPS rotation, and many said they'd be fine with that, but it's not want anyone has directly asked for or said the healers need. It's kinda like this... If you were looking at investment to start your business, let's say you ask for $500,000 as investment. If the investor offers you $5,000,000 dollars with no strings attached, then yeah, you're absolutely going to take that offer, but you were neither expecting, asking for, or needing that much capital. So sure, some people might go "yeah, that could be cool. I'd enjoy that," but I don't' think any of them would've asked for that specifically if given the opportunity to question the combat design team or anything.

    That said, something several of us have mentioned and actively discuss is having the healers have the same level of action volume and complexity of the tanks. That's more realistic of an ask since Tanks are the other half of the "support roles" and also do not have "dealing damage" as their primary responsibility. Perhaps you could have phrased it more like:

    "How would you feel if the healers received a DPS rotation on par with the Tank role while still juggling your healing duties? Should healers go even further than that?"

    That would still leave the door open to discuss going farther than tank rotations toward DPS rotations, but you'd be setting the expectation a lot closer to something more reflective of what this community on the forums wants, or at least, a chunk of us.
    (2)

  8. #8
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    Renathras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ty_taurus View Post
    ...
    I know you would have - not to put too find a point on it, but the question would then better reflect the outcome you want to see.

    I'm honestly treating 3 and 4 as one question, as that's how most of the respondents are treating it.

    And, as noted, many of the respondents ARE saying what they want - some are saying just 1, 2, or 3 more abilities, some are saying Tank rotation, some are saying DPS rotation, some are saying only a situational ability, some are saying a few more buttons but NOT a rotation (though I think people are often defining "rotation" as "combo", since technically a DoT + Spam has a "rotation" in the sense you have to press them in a cycle... but I think the obvious way to take that is people are thinking combos or similar ability strings, build-up-spender systems like RDM, etc), some are saying they want no changes, or no changes to specific Jobs (WHM and SGE are often mentioned as Jobs that people want left alone - I know you don't like that, but...), and a couple even asked for fewer DPS buttons and for less focus on damage dealing overall.

    The answers seem to be splitting into roughly 4/6 camps (6 overall though realistically 4 in a more general sense) of "less", "same", "one or a couple more (situational)", "one or a couple more (rotational)", "Tank rotation", and "DPS Job rotation". Each of these has at least some responses in favor of it. The lower two can PROBABLY be grouped together, and the third and fourth are ARGUABLY the same thing, just how people are asking for them (both seem to be asking for 1-3 more DoTs, just to some individuals that's a rotation and to others it isn't), and then the Tank group is asking for a small rotation, and the final group is asking for a full on DPS rotation.

    And too a point, these also seem to be based on people's preferred Job. For example, WHM players seem to largely want WHM to remain unchanged or only have very minor changes while SCH players seem to want a pretty hearty rework.

    ...kinda like my "4 Healers" proposal.

    It'd be interesting to imagine a world where WHM remains the same (maybe has Aero 3/Banish for AOE packs), SCH has several more DoTs with different timers and some interacting abilities like Fester and Bane and Shadow Flare, AST has a simple Tank 1-2-3 and occasional -4 combo, and SGE has a SMN/RDM type rotation and heals with Kardia. That would simultaneously address all the disparate needs of the community. BUT...

    After today maybe I'll have some time to finish tabulating what's there (yesterday I did a preliminary run through the main page one then worked out my guidelines and wrote them down for how I'm classifying each answer so that I can have full transparency on that), then actually run the numbers and see what they end up being at that time. Also about 3 days seems a good amount of run time to let new responses trickle off and get a good measure of everyone who has answered.

    ...and I really want to do that FIRST before making any statements, because I want to see what those percentages are. There are also other considerations, as there are people who want more buffing (and non-damage related buffing - Expedient was mentioned a few times, and a lot of people want Healers to be the ones who own party mitigation) that also have to be factored in, which are important parts of the conversation as well.
    (0)
    Last edited by Renathras; 03-21-2023 at 05:32 AM. Reason: EDIT for length

  9. #9
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
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    Noah Orih
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    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    I know you would have - not to put too find a point on it, but the question would then better reflect the outcome you want to see.
    Actually that's more what your phrasing of the question is doing, painting a skewed outcome unrealistic of this game in order to reflect the outcome you want to see. Let's just be honest about it. No reason to hide that.

    EDIT: Actually, never mind. You're right, it's important that we use unrealistic extremes that no one is actually asking for in order to understand what players want and to what lengths, so I propose we add a 5th question:

    5. Would you stop playing healer if every healer had no DPS buttons at all and were provided a trust AI to complete MSQ instance battles (all content otherwise remains the same, outgoing damage included). In order to complete any quests that ask you defeat an enemy, you'll need to join a party with at least 1 tank or DPS, or switch to a tank or DPS job.
    (3)
    Last edited by ty_taurus; 03-21-2023 at 06:30 AM.

  10. #10
    Player
    Allegor's Avatar
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    Red Rider
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    Hyperion
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    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ty_taurus View Post
    5. Would you stop playing healer if every healer had no DPS buttons at all and were provided a trust AI to complete MSQ instance battles (all content otherwise remains the same, outgoing damage included). In order to complete any quests that ask you defeat an enemy, you'll need to join a party with at least 1 tank or DPS, or switch to a tank or DPS job.
    I know that's the joke but reading that question filled me with....disgust and anxiety, for lack of a better word. Please don't say such things again lol
    (5)
    Quote Originally Posted by Allegor View Post
    Can't increase healing requirements because "it'd stress the newbies"
    Can't increase dps options either because "it'd stress the newbies"
    so apparently the only option that doesn't "stress the newbies" is either pressing 1211111111, or do nothing at all.

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