Paired Threads: What would it take to make Heaker kits "complex/interesting"?

[Rilifane]

I mean, I'm an odd one out because I don't think the Shadowbringers lilies actually made WHM "fun", but probably more people would be satisfied yeah. Yippee, three charges of what amounts to oGCD Medica, the WHM is saaaaved. It's definitely going to be fun and competitive next to *points at healers with a flying crapload of utility and buffs and strengths the WHM kit has only ever dreamed of*

You're not.
I dislike the ShB Lilies because they are as bland and boring and sterile as it gets. They make WHM function. But copying the two most bland and boring skills (Cure II and Medica) or all skills for a free, instant version and making the only interaction automatic isn't something that makes WHM fun or let alone gives it a skill ceiling. You just throw Lilies left and right and use Misery at 3. There. That's it. WHM functions but it's bland.

Compare that to the vanilla healer WHM equivalent:

• multiple skills that reduce the cooldown of other skills, can be expanded further through talent choices
• multiple "chance to leave hot on target" talents paired with a "heals extra when jumping to a target with hot on it"
• a cooldown that restores mana and decreases remaining cooldown of everyone else's major defensive by 60s
• three heal cooldowns that each work very differently - one let's you use powerful heals more often through cooldown reductions from first point, one that gives a dps OR single target heal OR aoe heal buff after using related skills, one that is channeled
• a killing blow protection with 40% healing received increase that gets cooldown reduced by 2/3 if no killing blow was prevented or isn't consumed and gives the heal buff for the full duration if a killing blow was prevented
• a 10%, 8s dps and heal buff if healing/ damaging targets below 35%
• a skill that heals for 400% of its normal heal and has the cooldown reduced by 2/3 if it healed a target below 35%
• a dps spell proccing instant, free single target heals, 2 stacks
• in addition to a dps buff to you & someone else on 2min, a functioning and responsive Rescue-equivalent, a ground target speed buff for anyone who walks through with 3 charges and 30s cooldown, a mass dispell that affects 5 allies and 1 enemy on 20s cooldown

The utility is unique to this class as is the killing blow protection (can't cheese certain mechanics with it, sorry ), other classes bring different utility. Amazingly enough, they're all desired. While there do exist rankings, none of the specs are in "okay, but better bring something else" category.

And that's the most straightforward, basic healer in a generic raid heal spec.
Your raid won't die if you don't make good use of the "leave hot/ heal extra with hot" mechanic or if you don't manage to snapshot below 35% targets with a heal or if you don't use your cooldowns for maximum effect. But you have a lot of interactions that give room to increase your healing done, freeing up more time to dps with a toolkit that is, at its core, already more varied than in FF and you have the options to expand it further for a few talent points, adjustingg your toolkit to the environment.

I don't believe for ONE second that FF "can't do better" than what we have. There's plenty of ways to act interaction between heals and dps skills.
Especially the "gives 10% buffs if healing/ damaging below 35% targets" would work perfectly work in FF as you're encouraged to NOT instantly spam everyone to full. Every raidwide/ buster and quickly reacting to emergencies gives you a chance to milk it, making you a better healer AND green dps.
The mana restore & defensive reduction would also work nicely because having mit up more frequently in itself isn't op, you still need to time it properly. Both the mit itself and the cd reduction to catch multiple cds with it.
Cooldown reductions in general are a no brainer. The more active you are, the more active you can be because you get rewarded with more for doing more.

[fulminating]

It’s not like the sharlayans have shown themselves to be bastions of competence, nor the conniving bastards introduced in the ast questline, this expansion. Their complex warrior-scholar lovechild being utterly braindead would just be icing on the cake.

[Aravell]

Speaking of MSQ on AST, I did a run through of the entirety of 6.0 MSQ as a WAR and then as an AST, the AST run took 3 hours more than the WAR run despite getting instant dungeon queues for every dungeon. I don't think people can say in good faith that solo content/MSQ on healer is fine as it is.

[ASkellington]

Speaking of MSQ on AST, I did a run through of the entirety of 6.0 MSQ as a WAR and then as an AST, the AST run took 3 hours more than the WAR run despite getting instant dungeon queues for every dungeon. I don't think people can say in good faith that solo content/MSQ on healer is fine as it is.

I have done the entirety of the MSQ as a healer. ARR as CNJ/WHM (and again as SCH), HW-EW as AST and can tell you that no, solo content as healer is trash and if the devs want to make this game more "solo friendly" they need to fix that glaring hole.

Anyone who thinks that healer is fine I challenge you to do the same thing. Do tell us how long you lasted.

[Allegor]

I have done the entirety of the MSQ as a healer. ARR as CNJ/WHM (and again as SCH), HW-EW as AST and can tell you that no, solo content as healer is trash and if the devs want to make this game more "solo friendly" they need to fix that glaring hole.

Anyone who thinks that healer is fine I challenge you to do the same thing. Do tell us how long you lasted.

When I was a little sprout I began as CNJ since I'm a healer/support main in every game I play. I had Aero III, Cleric Stance, Stoneskin, Fluid Aura still did damage, and whatever I crossclassed with ACN or THM - I thought cool, this is like my priest in WoW with a bit of druidism added in!

Any 'healer main' sprout joining in now will too probably think "it'll get better!" and eventually realize...no, it doesn't really get better, they're only ever pressing 111111111, specially because WHM has LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE TO DO, NOT EVEN OGCDS until 56 when they get Assize. I really wouldn't blame them if they just dropped it and go with a dps class instead.

PS: hehe, glaring hole

[Rivna]

When I was a little sprout I began as CNJ since I'm a healer/support main in every game I play. I had Aero III, Cleric Stance, Stoneskin, Fluid Aura still did damage, and whatever I crossclassed with ACN or THM - I thought cool, this is like my priest in WoW with a bit of druidism added in!

Any 'healer main' sprout joining in now will too probably think "it'll get better!" and eventually realize...no, it doesn't really get better, they're only ever pressing 111111111, specially because WHM has LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE TO DO, NOT EVEN OGCDS until 56 when they get Assize. I really wouldn't blame them if they just dropped it and go with a dps class instead.

PS: hehe, glaring hole

I'm that sprout... I started playing like 4-5 months ago and did the MSQ solo as CNJ. The gameplay was so painful & boring that I was not really paying attention to the story anymore because I had netflix on the side since all I did was run around and the only gameplay was the same spell over & over. I switched to AST when I reached Ishgard cause I thought WHM was the problem but I was still bored whenever I had to fight so I went with sage and was still bored. It was only once I started playing DNC, that I realized that playing healer was the problem.

Then when I finished the MSQ I started savage on my sage and when I got past the thrill of learning the mechanics of p5s and got my first reclears with people that knew the fight, I got bored once again. Because I was left spamming the same spell for nearly the whole fight. Now I'm progging p8s but the tight heal check of phase 2 feels more like a bother. Because all I do is weave a heal in between two dosis casts. I play every healer in savage besides scholar and neither has been fun for me. The only thrill I get when playing now is saving people with rescue, I wish we had more such mechanics.

And please don't tell me that healing isn't for me. I've played healer in nearly every online game where there was such an option.

[Rilifane]

Having the weakest damage output of all classes/ roles and the most barebone kit for damage output is just the worst combination.
5min of straight 2111111111112 with the class gimmick on 45s/ 60s cooldown to... uh... cause a burst of excitement, yes. It's trash. The solo experience is miserable. And it drags out for longer than on any other class too.

[Faidid]

1) I agree Rilifane! DPS rotations are laughably lame right now. The very unpopular decision to take them away and over homogenize the healing jobs was a grave mistake. Should the dps be on par with traditional dps jobs? Of course not...but, spamming 1-button is just ridiculous design. Anyone responsible for stripping these jobs down to the state they are in today should be barred from touching healers again.

[RyuDragnier]

1) I agree Rilifane! DPS rotations are laughably lame right now. The very unpopular decision to take them away and over homogenize the healing jobs was a grave mistake. Should the dps be on par with traditional dps jobs? Of course not...but, spamming 1-button is just ridiculous design. Anyone responsible for stripping these jobs down to the state they are in today should be barred from touching healers again.

3-4 DPS buttons would be preferable, with some oGCD modifiers. Such as how SCH was back in SB. Miasma, Bio II, Bane to spread those, Miasma II, Shadow Flare, Energy Drain, and Broil. Didn't need much to make SCH feel really good to DPS as. Hell, just having a 2nd DoT and the capability to spread it with Deployment Tactics (it really needs to work like how it does in PvP) would be a big upgrade in how DPS feels for SCH alone.

All the healers could stand to have a 2nd DoT and a modifier. SCH getting back their ability to spread the DoTs, WHM being able to strengthen their DoTs, AST being able to detonate them for burst damage, and SGE being able to get a damage boost from the DoTs (like NIN's current Trick Attack). Small things that would make DPSing feel a lot better.

[IDontPetLalas]

3-4 DPS buttons would be preferable, with some oGCD modifiers. Such as how SCH was back in SB. Miasma, Bio II, Bane to spread those, Miasma II, Shadow Flare, Energy Drain, and Broil. Didn't need much to make SCH feel really good to DPS as. Hell, just having a 2nd DoT and the capability to spread it with Deployment Tactics (it really needs to work like how it does in PvP) would be a big upgrade in how DPS feels for SCH alone.

All the healers could stand to have a 2nd DoT and a modifier. SCH getting back their ability to spread the DoTs, WHM being able to strengthen their DoTs, AST being able to detonate them for burst damage, and SGE being able to get a damage boost from the DoTs (like NIN's current Trick Attack). Small things that would make DPSing feel a lot better.

I agree with your first sentence, however not necessarily with the part in bold as that's the part that leads to a rather dull experience- a copy/paste of each healer. by all means, let one have a few dots (likely SCH), but why not try to be a bit more creative, if possible for the other three healers? Maybe one could have a new DPS burst skill on longer CD, or another could have a proc skill, etc?