Change the duty finder penalty

[UkcsAlias]

In fairness it should be a reduced penalty. 6 wipes on a story dungeon? Starts to sound like a lost cause.

Well, the reason for the penalty to not scale down is because its generaly going to cause a leaving streak. Even if its a staggered system, people will still go for that limit. If leaving now gives 5min penalty, its tempting to do that as even a toilet break is already a long enough wait to make it expire.

Leaving at the start or after 15mins is both 30mins. As 30mins is above the average duty completion time, it effectively is always a penalty with the duration of a duty. Even if you are 30mins into the duty, there usualy is progress. Wiping at the same part doesnt always mean the same thing, players can still be more efficient, but just not understand that specific mechanic. Leviathan Extreme is a prime example of facing a lot of wipes, and suddenly completing without any hassle. And thats why 30mins helps. Its almost never worth it to leave as the penalty will be anoying.

But the key here is chat. If the chat is inactive, then its unlikely improvements will take place as no hints are given for improvement at all. When people are chatting, it can often get people to explain mechanics faster, or tips at handling them. With 6 wipes and no one in chat reponding at all, that would even make me leave. 30mins doing some sidequests beats constant wipes in teams that show no motivation. With chat we can see the progress a lot better, or identify the problem player. And either guide him towards improvement, or kick (especialy without any chatting, the risk here is higher. admitting you are the problem is often a good start at improving, its nothing to be ashamed off).

And luckily most of the duties only have 60mins in total, so even if you want to leave at 30mins, you still would end up with a similar time to not completing it at all. But here is where i think some gracefullness could be welcome. Since leaving at 15mins remaining should not give 30minutes. It should at most be equal towards the duty remainder.

[dspguy]

While I do understand the frustration of getting into a trial roulette (as an example) and it taking 20+ minutes because of multiple wipes... there is the "leave and take 30 minute penalty" option. There are other things you can do in-game (and more importantly) out of game with those 30 minutes. I've found that Vote Abandon usually is taken up after a few wipes, depending on the situation. Speaking for myself, if there is a first-timer, I don't vote abandon. Chances are, I'm only IN that instance because I chose roulette and this is what I got. In exchange for a bonus of tomestones, I help out a player in need. That's the entire design of roulette - to fill slots in otherwise unfilled duties.

[Gemina]

Look, I am not arguing in favour of giving exceptions to the penalty. I have not stated once I want the penalty gone, in fact, I've said the opposite a few times now.

But to claim that someone is a problematic person for wanting to leave because the party is unable to clear is so asinine to me. Because the part you are leaving out is that you sign up for DF to help each other clear. And guess what? There was no clearing. If he had left within the first few minutes, or even after the first wipe, sure, problematic. But to want to leave after 6 attempts? Nah. He was well within reason to want that.

That's fine if you feel that way. I'm not chastising you or the OP for wanting to leave, and have stated that you are free to do so. What I am pointing out are the circumstances and problems that develop for abandoning. That's why there is a penalty for leaving a duty you are bound to. You can initiate a vote to abandon, and if it doesn't go your way that means you are in the minority who wishes to leave. I pointed out why it is problematic by abandoning, and by extension that makes the player who chooses to leave a problem as well.

Makes me go to this;


By definition, entitlement would also be expecting to be completely carried through the content you are doing and expecting everyone to stick it through until you get your clear even when you are obviously lacking the required skill to clear and are holding the group back.

I'm not saying that that person didn't deserve a clear. But the vote abandon should have gone through and that person (two people i believe) should have practiced a bit.

To say someone absolutely cannot leave unless they have an irl emergency is problematic and entitled.

The entitlement you speak of in this situation doesn't belong to the players within the duty having trouble. It actually belongs to the player who thinks a vote abandon should go their way because the group is having trouble clearing it. Especially if they feel like those players are expecting to be carried. For all you know, those players could already be feeling down because they are not performing very well in the first place. I would avoid accusations towards players you weren't even grouped with if you want to establish a point on how the OP is not the problem in this situation.

[Bobby66]

I personally follow a two wipe rule for older story content. Game has enough to do that 30 min goes by fairly quick.

[Remolia]

I personally follow a two wipe rule for older story content. Game has enough to do that 30 min goes by fairly quick.

it should be 3 minimum, since people need one more extra try to solve new (for them) mechanics.

[Raven2014]

By definition, entitlement would also be expecting to be completely carried through the content you are doing and expecting everyone to stick it through until you get your clear even when you are obviously lacking the required skill to clear and are holding the group back.

I'm not saying that that person didn't deserve a clear. But the vote abandon should have gone through and that person (two people i believe) should have practiced a bit.

To say someone absolutely cannot leave unless they have an irl emergency is problematic and entitled.

How do you know they're expected to be carried? How do you know they're simply trying hard and just failing?

As someone had said, four people suffered these wipe together. Unless the other players was AFKing while the OP bang his head against wall by himself, I don't see how the OP is the exclusive victim here.

Expecting your group to stay together to the end is not entitlement because that's the default expectation when you click on that join duty button. If it is, it's still far less an entitlement then someone who are expecting special treatment to the rule 'cause things don't go their way.

To say someone absolutely cannot leave unless they have an irl emergency is problematic and entitled.

- And absolutely nobody said that.

- You are free to leave at any time.

- The entitlement is when you believe you deserved to be treated differently then what the rule specify.

You're keeping twisting and mingle these 3 separate things together, it's called muddy up an argument.

[Xirean]

- The entitlement is when you believe you deserved to be treated differently then what the rule specify.

Isn't this thread based on the request to change the rule? And if said rule were changed it wouldn't be special treatment, it would be as the rule specifies.

[Iyrnthota]

Isn't this thread based on the request to change the rule? And if said rule were changed it wouldn't be special treatment, it would be as the rule specifies.

I think this logic is only just shy of eating it's own tail.

[VerdeLuck]

If anything I think the abandon penalty should be higher for some duties or Data Centers. If I queue on Dynamis and get a party after 60 minutes of queueing, I don't want to get kicked back out to queue another 60 minutes because someone had a tantrum, and have their punishment be less than the time it takes for me to find a replacement party.

[Kolaina]

Isn't this thread based on the request to change the rule? And if said rule were changed it wouldn't be special treatment, it would be as the rule specifies.

Precisely.

The rule had its place a long time ago. When tanks would queue up and leave immediately to troll dps queues. These dps would wait 30 minutes or more, finally get the duty to pop, just for the tank to leave and put the dps at the back of the queue line. With no roulettes and limited tanks, it was near impossible to get a replacement before the duty ended. That’s why we have the penalty in the first place.

Times have changed. I think the rules should reflect that. Not advocating for being rid of the penalty altogether. But more leniency. A reduced timer. Something, as the cause in the first place is hardly an issue now