Duty Complete should mean duty complete :)

[MakoMight]

If a c41 person doesn't put duty complete, they are effectively lying. There are potentially (and most likely) more than 1 person who hasn't cleared. So no, those are not "honest" c41 hosts :P. I understand you've had some bad PF experiences, but your solution only hurts the playerbase and fixes nothing .

First you say removing the duty complete option means you can't put up the PF, now you're saying the ones who don't put duty complete when they haven't completed are the ones lying? I admire your talent for stretching but this was not supposed to be a circus.

I understand that there are certain... upstanding members of the playerbase who have shown up in here, who have admitted to being on the other side of this issue, and who would be... inconvenienced if things were to change. But you see that's actually the point

your only real choices at all (short of outside organizing via social, and honestly I don't think the game should have to rely on social media as much as it does, especially for something this basic) are to flag Duty Complete or demand an ilvl that can't be gotten without a certain degree of Savage experience

I mean, sure, if you think demanding a higher ilvl is the key then go ahead and demand a higher ilvl. But do you think I should be able require everyone else to have an ilvl that I myself do not have, and if they wouldn't have been ok with that they can check my ilvl after instancing in and leave if they notice a problem? Because that's currently how this system works.

[Amarande]

I mean, sure, if you think demanding a higher ilvl is the key then go ahead and demand a higher ilvl. But do you think I should be able require everyone else to have an ilvl that I myself do not have, and if they wouldn't have been ok with that they can check my ilvl after instancing in and leave if they notice a problem? Because that's currently how this system works.

I'm mainly saying the status quo is pretty much about the best that can be done with the current design of PF, and that SE attempting to enforce playerbase cultural norms through restricting options isn't the answer.

To really do better, you'd need a PUG finder that allows for back and forth between the lead and potential joiners (joiner applies, lead has a period of time to decide whether to invite, joiner can decide to accept invite then or not. When group fills or delists, all pending applications are automatically canceled and told that the group's no longer listed), as WoW's equivalent to PF does (here also the server side Duty Complete flag is not even required, as the lead can simply require that applicants manually supply proof of clear before extending an invite).

This is probably a little better than PF, but it's not a panacea either, because two problems still arise:

a, there is still no means of checking if people accompanying the lead at time of listing meet the stated requirements, so "sneaking a carry along" is still not prevented;
b, the de facto ilvl requirements actually go through the roof, as the leader can wait to see if a better geared person applies before deciding to accept the first applicant, so once the community has enough high geared people it is even harder for stragglers to catch up. The nominally required ilvl (which WoW actually does enforce to be no higher than the leader's) is basically irrelevant.

(On the flip side, because b is up to the leader's judgment, it would alleviate the role shortage issue we suffer from in XIV, where players attempting to actually switch over to roles in need mid-tier find it's ineffective because crafted ilvl is no longer sufficient to actually join the groups ...)

[TomsYoungerBro]

First you say removing the duty complete option means you can't put up the PF, now you're saying the ones who don't put duty complete when they haven't completed are the ones lying? I admire your talent for stretching but this was not supposed to be a circus.

I understand that there are certain... upstanding members of the playerbase who have shown up in here, who have admitted to being on the other side of this issue, and who would be... inconvenienced if things were to change. But you see that's actually the point



I mean, sure, if you think demanding a higher ilvl is the key then go ahead and demand a higher ilvl. But do you think I should be able require everyone else to have an ilvl that I myself do not have, and if they wouldn't have been ok with that they can check my ilvl after instancing in and leave if they notice a problem? Because that's currently how this system works.

If you can't put up a C41 with duty complete...you can't put up a C41 with duty complete...Cool down from all those bad PFs and maybe you can finally comprehend that :P.


Again, i've told you it solves nothing and you've done everything but disprove that statement. Having a rough time in PF? Welcome! Maybe join a C41 duty complete sometime to help out

[MakoMight]

If you can't put up a C41 with duty complete...you can't put up a C41 with duty complete...Cool down from all those bad PFs and maybe you can finally comprehend that :P.


Again, i've told you it solves nothing and you've done everything but disprove that statement. Having a rough time in PF? Welcome! Maybe join a C41 duty complete sometime to help out

Uh, are you ok? Do you need a little bit of help? English not your first language or something? I apologize for correcting your grammar earlier, let me try to help accomodate instead: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/comprehend
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/prove

Thank you to the people acknowledging the flag is only there to be used by people trying to get results! Please continue to explain to me why duty completes can also trap... that's why you use duty complete when you want better results for yourselves when you don't meet the condition... and why it's okay because you've deemed yourselves more worthy than people who have completed. What can I say, I am a patient teacher and understand irony can be a difficult thing to grasp.

No, I do not want to join your c41! I actually kind of dislike it when totem parties fill with people who cleared yesterday and only because of c41! I really dislike it when duty complete loot parties turn out to be people trying to fill a c4x! But thank you for admitting that your problem is that it's hard to use party finder to get people to willingly fill c41, and for sharing some of the hoops you would jump through to get your c41 filled regardless of how PF is set up.

There are times when I am willing to spend time to get people clears, and there are times when I'm not. There are some people willing to spend a lot of time helping people clear, and there are others who are not. But what you c4me folks need to comprehend when doing endgame duties in PF is you are no longer a sprout and you are not entitled to have strangers on the internet give their time to you to help you clear content for free, and just because being dishonest sometimes gets you better results does not make it ok!

[MakoMight]

I'm mainly saying the status quo is pretty much about the best that can be done with the current design of PF, and that SE attempting to enforce playerbase cultural norms through restricting options isn't the answer.


This is probably a little better than PF, but it's not a panacea either, because two problems still arise:

This isn't about SE enforcing cultural norms at all, and this isn't about "solving" people using PF in stupid ways.

If someone puts up a PF that locks out a certain job and I try to join on the job that's locked out... maybe I think they're being stupid, maybe I didn't read their description, maybe I decided I don't need to respect their wishes... it doesn't matter, the system will prevent me from joining their party. There are some clowns in here who will write essays about why you're wrong if you think "this job can't clear," why being able to lock out certain jobs 'hurts the playerbase' or why it doesn't actually work because you can change jobs after joining... well go take a hike, you don't meet the requirements set by the host and the system has an effect. Try sending a tell if you have a good reason why they should make an exception, it usually works.

People who join parties are also agreeing to join based on the description and requirements posted. So if a PF host tries to put up a party where they don't meet their own requirements because they aren't happy with the results from clear parties or whatever... they can! Clear parties can't clear, I'll just put up a totem party and my chances will be better! I just don't see the great evil if they aren't able to do this or why that would lead to ilvl inflation.

Yeah, abyssos savage had a role shortage, a shield healer shortage very specifically, there were plenty of WHMs running around PF. Mit is a team responsibility and it turns out people like to blame shield healer for their 100k overkill with a vuln or for dying to unmitigated 35k dot ticks instead of taking responsibility for yourself. It turns out people who are in the habit of relying on party finder convenience to find groups to play with tend to be not great at taking responsibility, and it turns out meeting that responsibility threshold is very difficult without communicating with and having some relationship with the people you play with. But if you think demanding higher ilvls or duty completes are the answer you are going to have a bad time, and if you're demanding that everyone else be further along than you in gear or completion... you're asking for a big favor, you should not expect the PF system to save you from the inconvenience of having to talk to and maybe negotiate with people. If you think that because clearing hard duties is hard people should be allowed to lie about those things... frankly, I will not be convinced to agree with you and I hope everyone (except that one person I know is in here) who reads this will not agree with you.

Somewhat related I personally like my chances a lot better with someone who's cleared and is putting in the effort to help a friend, even if I don't like the dishonesty, than I do with people who are trying to clear themselves. Of course PF cannot solve people being dishonest and/or stupid... but I am pointing out a very small and very obvious example of a feature being broken here, what is so hard to see about it?

[Amarande]

Somewhat related I personally like my chances a lot better with someone who's cleared and is putting in the effort to help a friend, even if I don't like the dishonesty, than I do with people who are trying to clear themselves.

I think we're more in agreement than disagreement in this case.

The critical situation is that of a player who's tried, but has begun to experience frustration rather than fun because of the inability to seal the deal relying on strict potluck of uncleared joiners, and would like to increase their chances of actually finally getting out of that purgatory. Worse, this happens brutally often to anyone who doesn't make a point to shove around real life to make sure they have plenty of free time to push stuff when the content drops and "everyone's doing it" (which seems to be becoming an ever faster rush each time, I wonder if that's also part of my observations in other threads about the decline of night owl play in XIV? I.e., the endgame playerbase is now overwhelmingly morning larks because of the desire to rush to be on when servers come up each patch? Might explain the timing of observing said decline, too).

Because PF doesn't let you actively review applicants like other PUG systems do, there's only three settings that in any way translate to "joiners are experienced, or at least smarter than the average bear:"

* Using a password and relying entirely on supplemental social venues (LS ... yeah fat chance, by this we pretty much exclusively mean Discord communities) to form the group.

* Demanding an ilvl that's only attainable at the time via having gained sufficient loot through Savage (which is only possible during certain parts of the patch cycle).

* Requiring the Duty Complete flag.

And this is why the frustrated player will use the DC flag, or have a friend do a C41 with it. It's because there are simply not many options otherwise, unless you're comfortable with massive (some, like the Balance, are literally larger than most REAL LIFE CITIES) Discord servers (assuming you still get along with them, and players in this exact situation tend to get the poorest treatment from the mainstream community, honestly ... usually brushed off with a "shoulda started sooner, not my problem" or told they should go to the level of recruiting a formal static, which may not be possible for them because RL scheduling).

Meanwhile, the community issue seems to be that any attempt to improve one's odds is undeserved, and trying to narrow joiners to anything but just "potluck uncleared joiners" when one is not cleared oneself is to be considered an out-and-out honesty issue.

Removing this option might cull out some situations, but it seems to me that it's very likely to make even more less-hardcore players simply give up on attempting hardmode content altogether until later tiers/unsync, as they're left with almost no convenient way to have a party that isn't just yet another P1 fresh prog party in disguise because joiners aren't reading the description (and then by the time this is discovered, the more capable teammates are leaving, so it only gets worse).

[MakoMight]

Ok, well thank you for presenting your reasoning in an honest and coherent manner. We are not at all in agreement and I think the main point of disagreement is this.

Nobody is entitled to clear hard, team-based content.

I know this is NA and we're all special snowflakes, but this attitude that 'I played perfectly, I deserve to clear and everybody else is the problem' is exactly the thing that makes PFing hard content so awful. I'd go much further - almost everyone in PF who think everyone else is the reason they didn't make that dps check or why they died to that mechanic isn't actually playing as well as they think they are. This is the price we pay to have content accessible to everyone, instead of being locked behind hours of gear gating, etc. Is it hard? Sure. Is it frustrating? Sure. Does frustration excuse being driven to lie about your prog point, ilvl, or completion status? Absolutely not, actually that dishonesty being so commonplace makes PF worse for everybody.

There's a bunch of things you said that I don't think are true at all. PF is alive and well, just since DC travel came out most of the parties are on Aether. Yeah, there's a segment of the raiding community that shows up when new content releases and unsubs when they clear, the raid scene is livelier when they're around and a little more dead when they're not. But no, lying and C41s are not your only option, I'm sure there are lots of people here like me who didn't even know you could put up DC loot parties without having cleared yourself... and honest clear parties do clear!

The hardest fights in the game take a lot of teamwork and communication. People who PF early week savage or on content ultimates usually form pseudo statics. And sure, I know people who I think had the ability to clear and couldn't because of static drama or whatever, hey, it's not a single player game that's a big part of what the fight requires and a big part of the skillset for raiding. People who think they're above the fray, don't need to deal with learners, or statics, or schedule, or whatever and then get frustrated that clearing is hard need to figure that out, not lie about it. And if your only options is to wait until later in the patch lifecycle when there are lots of vets around to c41 you... you might not be as good or as deserving as you think you are. Sorry, them's the breaks, lying your way to your clear doesn't become okay because you're frustrated.

What's next? Plogons and world firsts? That's a rhetorical question, by the way. When I was a sprout I raided with the guy those copypastas about having to cancel raid 'cause a 3gb patch shouldn't take this long' are based off of. I'm ashamed to say I used to think he was good.