Far Northern Attire

[Melorie]

So, are you arguing that using something from a culture without acknowledging the culture is actively harming said culture?

Well, yes? Should all symbols be stripped of meaning and associations with that particular group of people that actually maintained that culture and be used just as aesthetics? Do you think that transforming these traditions into something hollow as an aesthetic is saving that culture?

For example, in Brazil, it's not uncommon to see people using the Cocar as decorations for their living room. A Cocar is a sacred symbol for many different groups of indigenous people, and it's being banalized and used as a decoration. People have been mass-killing the sacred birds in order to mass produce cocars with their feathers, and the money made from selling them often doesn't get back to the indigenous groups. At all. If you follow any indigenous organization you'll see this discussion over and over again, and how they suffer with this.

The same happens with many other things: technology, knowledge of the plants/medicine, techniques for dealing with textiles, art, etc.

Is that the same things as an online game clothing? No. But transforming traditional things into a pure aesthetic without the involvement of these groups... Well, is quite similar. It's the same process over and over again. The same mindset. This is not effective into celebrating culture.

A good example is the recent Prey movie. Which was made involving native americans in the entire production: writing, research, actors, etc. The quality is clearly different, regardless if you enjoy it. You end up being able to celebrate a culture with the same people that make this culture alive, today, and compensate them for it. It's not hard to do this today, to actually open up space for dialogue and discussion instead of taking whatever you find pretty for yourself.

As a counter point. If you want people to appreciate a culture more, do you not think it would be a good idea to promote it? Rather than going in guns blazing about money, why not take the opportunity to educate people. Something along the lines of, look, this game has added something related to our culture, here is a brief lesson in how this is important to us and what it represents. However, they have not done that on 2 occasions. They have gone in with the aim of getting money, which is exactly the same mentality as the one they are attempting to get money from.
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In the world we live in, a game using your culture to generate money for it is far from representation. You know what's representation? Saami people sharing the profits from the mogstation, Saami artists being involved into the writing of the description or even the concept art. Speaking with cultural institutions from Saami people to know the best path ahead that can make this representation USEFUL for the people that actually make this culture alive and real and holds the knowledge of these traditions. Feeling like a game is doing good because it's getting profit from your traditional clothing without involving you in the process is a stretch.

I feel like there's plenty of discussion regarding kimonos and how you have games that dilute a culture and create a banal impression of it, even a sort of fetishization, especially when it comes to japanese culture. Have you ever searched for this? This happens a lot with japanese references in western media. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I'm not saying that getting money is ALWAYS the answer, but the clothing is at the mogstation, there wasn't a discussion before on how to include these people in the artistic process, financial compensation doesn't impress me as a given solution.

Indigenous group are not a monolith (or any group of people, really). They don't all think the same. Many people will probably not care. However that doesn't mean that cultural institutions hold no value or place in the discussion. You still don't have the right to tax people as greedy just because someone did not answer all your questions, that's quite childish. You might not agree with them completely but assuming they're greedy just because they're talking about money is a bit too much.

[aveyond-dreams]

I would highly advise some posters to read the accounts posted in this thread by actual Sami players before continuing to engage in further discussion.

[Melorie]

I would highly advise some posters to read the accounts posted in this thread by actual Sami players before continuing to engage in further discussion. In fact, I should probably go ahead and add those to the op.

Again, acting like a specific group of people are a monolith and they ALL think they same, and thus, because of this, cultural institutions hold no value into the discussing is just cherry-picking whatever you want to fit your narrative, one you've clearly already chosen. The opinion you agree with hold more weight for you, naturally. It's entirely possible that there are Saami people and players that do not care.

Anyone that has participated in a discussion with groups of specific cultures knows this. The Saami, Yanomami, Amazigh, Malinke... They aren't groups of people that have the same opinions regarding everything. That doesn't mean the discussion regarding utilizing traditional attires has zero meaning when it comes to discussing overall representation in games.

[Boblawblah]

Well, yes? Should all symbols be stripped of meaning and associations with that particular group of people that actually maintained that culture and be used just as aesthetics? Do you think that transforming these traditions into something hollow as an aesthetic is saving that culture?

I can respect your opinion, but I don't agree that a culture is being harmed here.

[Rokke]

Nothing was killed for the creation of a pixel sherpa hat, no harm comes from a rando in limsa wearing the set.

[Melorie]

I can respect your opinion, but I don't agree that a culture is being harmed here.

Harm is a strong word. My point is: there are many ways of companies bring representation to their products that are more useful to everyone involved. After all, a different process of creating these pieces can make a difference in the way we consume these traditions. And at the end of the day, this mindset of turning everything in an aesthetic which you can profit from IS harmful.

Nothing was killed for the creation of a pixel sherpa hat, no harm comes from a rando in limsa wearing the set.

Zzzz. You clearly don't get my point. Which is how turning traditional atttires, patterns and symbols into a hollow aesthetic is what fuels worse actions against these cultures.

[Coratanni]

Yes, those things look like they could be inspirations for the glamour.

But then you have this.



There's "looks like it could be inspiration" and then there's "looks like they found this picture and copied the outfit with minimal alterations".

I think you need your glasses changed for a new prescription.

[ronibosch]

Harm is a strong word. My point is: there are many ways of companies bring representation to their products that are more useful to everyone involved. After all, a different process of creating these pieces can make a difference in the way we consume these traditions.

Would it have been better if the outfit was a part of an in-game culture, like they did with the Whalaqee and the Azim Steppes tribes? Both are influenced by a blend of cultures from their respective, real-life locations.

[Caddo]

I realized how this looks on an Elezen and bought it. Thanks.

[Melorie]

Would it have been better if the outfit was a part of an in-game culture, like they did with the Whalaqee and the Azim Steppes tribes? Both are influenced by a blend of cultures from their respective, real-life locations.

I honestly don't believe that there is a universal solution. I do believe that there are MANY ways of including these things in a respectful, involved way. I also believe that if you're able to include that culture in the game somehow, and involve people from that culture into the writing/art/research, then it IS a better look than slapping a 18 usd mogstation attire. hah

I was happy when I finally saw Thavnair, clearly inspired by South East Asia, given that the FF universe has been borrowing from concepts of Hinduism and other religions (that aren't just religions but also a way of life) of that particular region for a long, long time. Even the name of some mobs are in nepali. It would make me even happier if I knew that there are artists from these regions involved in the creation of all this somehow.

Because representation isn't about having that thing there, but also about giving opportunity and space for those that are responsible for this culture being alive. Otherwise, you're just taking that aspect that you find cool/pretty for yourself.