PLD and WAR shut out for the second Ultimate in a row

[Renathras]

We really need 20-40 clears before we can make that determination.

"Everyone's using GNB/DRK because...!" - because that's what they've been using all expansion. People are used to playing those Jobs (and even PLD players are having to get used to the new rotation/abilities) and it's "the standard", so most people are going to use it, just like most teams use AST/SCH but that doesn't mean WHM and SGE are not viable or not being used at all.

The only "clear" so far that everyone's aware of was a cheating one that was even removed from FFL, so it's not like that's really a strong point to go on.

EDIT: Correction, I'm a bit out of date. 18.

4 used a WAR, 5 used a PLD, 9 used a GNB. All 18 used a DRK. This is suggesting that WAR and PLD are perhaps a bit less desired than GNB, but not abysmally so, and that the only "problem" if we want to call it that is that DRK is so highly valued that it's a near guaranteed slot.

[Curisu]

This..
PLD and WAR are not weak.
DRK is just way to strong.
If a adjustment is needed then it is a nerf of DRK, or buff of the other 3 tanks.

[Rithy255]

This..
PLD and WAR are not weak.
DRK is just way to strong.
If a adjustment is needed then it is a nerf of DRK, or buff of the other 3 tanks.

Pretty sure Dark knight is pretty much used in every ultimate raid group I've seen currently lol...
My real point is Dark knights current design is still really just odd and a rework of the job (not to make it easier or anything, I mean it's just weavy warrior anyway). I don't know Dark Knight is like so oddly specifically designed for raid content, with situational abilities like Dark Mind only really being good because magic is used most of the time, that + the amount of damage it outputs makes it just a must pick.

[Lieri]

I've tried both the non shooting gun wielder and My Chemical Romance knight and didn't like how they played/felt/their stances.
I loved PLD, the rotation felt satisfying but then they took Goring Blade and turned it into Boring Blade.
WAR is the only one remains. Doesn't matter if it's going to be at the bottom of DPS I'm not gonna play the three jobs mentioned above.
They need to balance out not only tanks to be honest but also DPS. Can understand rewarding busier jobs with more DPS but then you look at SMN.
Do better in the next patch.

[HyperiusUltima]

Might as well extrapolate usage here based on what FFLogs provides, as that's our only measure at the moment now that clears have happened. Note: This only reflects the current number of clears shown on logs at the time.

DRK: 22/25
GNB: 10/25
PLD: 7/25
WAR: 5/25

So, out of all that: DRK is highest in demand due to it being the top damaging tank, as well as having strong utilities in a raid setting that solidify it as a MUST HAVE apparently. The second spot is split between the three pretty closely, but GNB is more favored due to its damage being closer to DRK's even though three groups paired GNB with a PLD or WAR.

I think the current data tells us that DRK is too strong in terms of damage to be favored so highly - that, and both WAR and PLD are lacking in damage. You can say "Oh, but it's because of the utilities they bring!" but that's a poor argument because you'd rather be able to stack two magic mitigations compared to shields since it provides far more protection than any amount of shield can provide. It also doesn't help that Omega is skewed toward Magical Damage either, so it favors DRK/GNB far more than PLD/WAR.

Let's be real here though: If a single job's ability can't match another's in terms of damage mitigation, there's an issue with balancing as a whole. % Mitigation has always been favorable compared to HP Shields, as % Mitigations cut into the Final Damage far more. Shields are only as strong as their potency that subtract from the Final Damage before applying to HP. To equal in mitigation, Shields would have to match the exact % Mitigated by the percentage, and there-in lies the problem.

Not only do we have a 2-minute meta problem, we also have a fight design problem that needs to be looked at. If bringing shields(and a heal or regen attached to it) is weaker than bringing a proper party mitigation, then there needs to be a better look at how tanks apply their raid-wide mitigation aside from Reprisal and find a common ground where they're equal so one isn't burning more party mitigation resources than the other.

[Oizen]

I don't think it has anything to do with utility, utility is worthless compared to damage, and theres nothing this game's design can do to escape that.

[Renathras]

So, out of all that: DRK is highest in demand due to it being the top damaging tank, as well as having strong utilities in a raid setting that solidify it as a MUST HAVE apparently.

Almost. There's one additional thing that a number of people pointed out on r/ffxivdiscussion - DRK is the only Tank that benefits from forced downtime.

Ultimates have a lot of phase transitions. PLD generates gauge with autoattacks (requires a target) and also generates its "miniburst" Holy Spirit and Atonement through rotation. WAR generates Beast Gauge by rotation as well. GNB generates cartridges by rotation. While their burst (FoF/Req, Infuriate/Inner Release, No Mercy/Bloodfest) and their CD based abilities tick down, so do DRK's. But DRK's limiting resource generates during downtime. This, combined with so much of its damage being "on demand" in burst (more than the other Tanks, its "filler" damage is lower but its burst is higher) to use when pushing phases or beating mini-enrage checks makes DRK really strong in Ultimates.

It's strong in general, but PARTICULARLY in Ultimates because of the number of phase transitions (5) and downtime with no targetable enemies for mechanic transition periods. So while DRK is probably the strongest tank in Extreme/Savage right now, that's amplified to 11 in Ultimates.

PLD and WAR very clearly DO need some damage buffs, but part of the problem is also resources. To this day, I don't understand why PLD builds gauge from auto-attacks. That's a 1.0-type of convoluted. It should either generate at a constant rate (possibly with some CD to boost it) or generate by landing attacks. Or, honestly, PLD's gauge is so near pointless anyway, they should just have Shelltron and Intervene share a CD with 2 charges and remove Cover from costing gauge in general.

GNB is honestly about where it should be, like as not, it's just PLD and WAR need a bit more boost and DRK is a bit too powerful.

The second spot is split between the three pretty closely, but GNB is more favored due to its damage being closer to DRK's even though three groups paired GNB with a PLD or WAR.

I don't think it has anything to do with utility, utility is worthless compared to damage,

This isn't true for Ultimates nor for world firsts in a more general sense. It depends on what the utility IS - some "utility" is worthless while other utility is actually pretty useful - but damage isn't always > utility, but there's a limit to how much damage can be traded before no amount of utility is going to make up for it AND that not all utility is created equal/worth that tradeoff to begin with.

[HyperiusUltima]

I don't think it has anything to do with utility, utility is worthless compared to damage, and theres nothing this game's design can do to escape that.

Utilities matter. The amount of damage mitigation a tank's utility brings matters A LOT to a raid setting. If you think utility is completely worthless, then tell me how you mitigate raid-wides without utilities to shore up your defense and take the stress off healers.

It's also a matter of how that utility is best used, as well as the fight where it is used. You can try to match up comparable abilities against each other (Shake vs. Veil, HoL vs. DM) but when it comes to comparing a Shield to a % mitigation, it goes out the window when Magic is involved. If Physical Damage was more of a focus, then Shields would win out - so there is a balance to be struck in terms of design because this now reminds me of the whole PLD vs. DRK controversy when WAR was in a 100% Guaranteed spot similar to how DRK is now.

We had "Flavor of the Month" PLD or DRK back in Heavensward, namely when the raid boss for the patch was either Physical or Magical. In our current case we are never going to give up DRK because they are top damage, provide excellent self-mitigation, and have raid utilities to provide in terms of raw mitigation, both single and raid-wide. This then leaves it to a question: Does the fight involve Magical Raid-wide Damage? If it does, bring GNB for an extra raid-wide mitigation and more damage. If not, then either still pick GNB because damage or pick PLD/WAR for more survivability through shields. That's basically where we're at right now.

[Kabooa]

Utilities matter..

The greatest crime job design has committed in this game is making sure everyone was good enough and not letting anyone be excellent at one thing and bad at another.

[HyperiusUltima]

The greatest crime job design has committed in this game is making sure everyone was good enough and not letting anyone be excellent at one thing and bad at another.

Agreed. Living throughout Heavensward told me as much when PLD barely got any place in Savage groups, let alone Trial groups at that compared to DRK. Then Stormblood came and it was a mixed bag due to DRK controversy over Dark Arts. Shadowbringers reset everything and added a new tank to balance around, and this in itself created the paradigm we're currently living in, except it was far more balanced then than now. In the now we have a DRK that doesn't have anything it's bad at due to fight design being Magic-focused(in case people forget, 3/4 fights in this tier are Magic-based, and the last tier had magic-based raid-wides in all of its fights). If we introduce a Physical-focused fight, then DRK and GNB's utility drops off due to magic not being applicable.

We're again reliving HW's Flavor of the Month problem, except with a 4th tank.