PLD and WAR shut out for the second Ultimate in a row

[Oizen]

Did you know that no matter what you do, there is always going to be a "best job".

People doing a fucking Ultimate race are going to bring the meta, even if the difference is like .01%

[Absimiliard]

Let's be real here. Nobody realistically expected either job to be brought. They're barely accepted in savage groups, so why would people chasing world first in an ultimate use them? WAR is the king of dungeons (and nothing else), and PLD's rework somehow made it even more unpleasant to play (and less useful) than it already was.

[Rithy255]

Let's be real here. Nobody realistically expected either job to be brought. They're barely accepted in savage groups, so why would people chasing world first in an ultimate use them? WAR is the king of dungeons (and nothing else), and PLD's rework somehow made it even more unpleasant to play (and less useful) than it already was.

With PLD how is it "less useful" they buffed its utility and gave it a extra mitigation?

If we're talking about DPS, here PLD already wasn't going to perform at drk/gnb levels or even close when you took into account how PLD works under raid buffs. Also the class is way easier to perform at a decent level with the rework, I don't understand how it's more "unpleasant" maybe less enjoyable is a better word for some?

I think both should be buffed, PLD needs more adjustments besides that, but it's not like PLD suddenly got worse it was always non-meta this expansion, the only difference now is that it falls behind less defensively and is more easier to play.

[Absimiliard]

I think both should be buffed, PLD needs more adjustments besides that, but it's not like PLD suddenly got worse it was always non-meta this expansion, the only difference now is that it falls behind less defensively and is more easier to play.

But it did get worse. That's the problem. Its damage is about the same in raids, but it actually lost quite a bit in all other forms of content. Additionally, the rotation is now even less forgiving despite having been simplified significantly. One minor hiccup, and you get slammed with MP issues out the wazoo. What's more, the tempo of several of the current fights is such that PLD will actually get punished for doing its rotation correctly. The rework was, frankly, ill-conceived and terribly implemented. I would put it up there with missed positionals making DRG drop its combos in ARR and SAM losing Kaiten.

Utility is largely irrelevant. Nobody takes DRK and GNB because of their utility - it's all about their damage, which both PLD and WAR are noticeably lacking at the moment. Yeah, they're also pretty useful for cheesing certain things, but so is WAR. If the cheesing and utility outweighed the damage, you'd be seeing WAR used far more than you do.

[Rithy255]

But it did get worse. That's the problem. Its damage is about the same in raids, but it actually lost quite a bit in all other forms of content. Additionally, the rotation is now even less forgiving despite having been simplified significantly. One minor hiccup, and you get slammed with MP issues out the wazoo. What's more, the tempo of several of the current fights is such that PLD will actually get punished for doing its rotation correctly. The rework was, frankly, ill-conceived and terribly implemented. I would put it up there with missed positionals making DRG drop its combos in ARR and SAM losing Kaiten.

Utility is largely irrelevant. Nobody takes DRK and GNB because of their utility - it's all about their damage, which both PLD and WAR are noticeably lacking at the moment. Yeah, they're also pretty useful for cheesing certain things, but so is WAR. If the cheesing and utility outweighed the damage, you'd be seeing WAR used far more than you do.

Ok so in terms of damage (which is the most important thing especially when DPS checks are important), PLD is still behind GNB/DRK so it's irrelevant to pick PLD based on damage in the first place from 6.0.-6.2 You'd never pick PLD for damage reasons it remains the same for 6.3, In terms of utility and defensives, it being less of a meme compared to the other tanks is something good when you consider all the DOT's and how much PLD was suffering through defensively it's at least not causing issues in that regard, So it stands to reason that choosing PLD now isn't just bad on both sides, at least PLD can actually tank at a decent rate. Meta will most likely always be damage anyway so who cares? you're always going to have 2 tanks that are meta and 2 that aren't, I feel like warrior in p1s-p4s was actually pretty fairly balanced as a defensive utility comfort tank, but the fight design currently just doesn't suit warriors, Tanks that aren't meta should at least have unique upsides that make them more desirable, I think they obviously need to slightly buff war/pld but making any one of them meta just means GNB/DRK get complained about because they're no longer meta.

The rework as far as I know, you don't really need to hard cast holy spirits or drop atonements apparently, You just adjust whatever is at the end of your burst and it isn't a massive loss, I will say the rework wasn't great, it was a good direction, but at the end of the day it needs a lot of work, I'd like to see PLD's cover, clemency and even shield bash be turn into more used abilities, I'd like to see goring blade do literally anything else, I'd like to see Flight or fight gone, put the burst into req, both exist as means to just buff your burst anyway, A lot of space needs to be made for PLD as well merging some abilities and removing pointless stuff like circle of scorn.

[Espon]

But it did get worse. That's the problem. Its damage is about the same in raids, but it actually lost quite a bit in all other forms of content. Additionally, the rotation is now even less forgiving despite having been simplified significantly. One minor hiccup, and you get slammed with MP issues out the wazoo. What's more, the tempo of several of the current fights is such that PLD will actually get punished for doing its rotation correctly. The rework was, frankly, ill-conceived and terribly implemented. I would put it up there with missed positionals making DRG drop its combos in ARR and SAM losing Kaiten.

Utility is largely irrelevant. Nobody takes DRK and GNB because of their utility - it's all about their damage, which both PLD and WAR are noticeably lacking at the moment. Yeah, they're also pretty useful for cheesing certain things, but so is WAR. If the cheesing and utility outweighed the damage, you'd be seeing WAR used far more than you do.

Reading this makes it sound like you haven't even touched paladin since its rework. What did it lose? DoTs? They fixed the biggest issue with Sheltron, spread out their self-healing so it wasn't entirely in their magic phase, gave them another defensive ability as well as improving their burst capabilities.

Unless you're sitting there spamming Holy Spirits for no reason, you won't even come close to running out of MP. Paladin's rotation is far more flexible now, and there's little reason to drop Atonements or throw in extra Holy Spirits to force a 1 or 2 minute rotation as the overall DPS is roughly the same. You can argue that it might be more boring to play, but that's more a matter of opinion.

There are some things they can still fix, but overall Paladin is in a much better place. I would like to see them up the damage potencies since they still are a bit on the low end, and fix it so Atonement doesn't break your combo. I'd also like to see the button bloat issue addressed, but most jobs suffer from this as well.

And utility isn't irrelevant in Ultimate fights. Your item level is synced and being able to properly mitigate damage is just as important as dealing damage.

[Lyth]

During the time of Stormblood and UCOB, DRK did significantly less damage than both PLD and WAR, offered weaker burst, generated less limit break, had less raidwide mitigation, and had the single worst invuln in the game. This is during a time in the game's history when discrepancies between tanks were much greater than they are now. DRK was the least played tank by a significant margin and the community as a whole felt it offered little to no raid value compared to the dominant two tanks. It was also, much to everyone's surprise, used in the world first clear of UCOB.

Players retrospectively tried to dissect why this happened by looking at cooldown rotations and Dark Mind, but it comes down to the fact that different players in prog just have different preferences. Some people will only pick what they think is theoretically optimal for a given fight, and others will lean into a job that they find more comfortable or more enjoyable. It's not always a rational decision, especially when you are figuring fights out for yourself.

[Rithy255]

Personally I wanted to add that Just because Dark Knight & Gunbreaker are meta, doesn't mean they're greatly designed, personally I think Gunbreaker is perfectly fine, it's likely got "some" issues, but in general the Job seems to be well liked, While Dark Knight seems to be meta but still people are generally upset about the Jobs direction in recent expansions (SHB/EW), a lot of people feel like it's identity doesn't really fit it's funny how it used to be the "Magic tank" but now it really doesn't have a lot to do with magic, it's Core GCD rotation is somehow more easier then warriors, it's got a lot of weaving in 120 windows but not much else, it lacks the sustain of other tanks, funnily though because it's damage is good and its defensives are generally acceptable (I think DRK's defensives are even situationally the best in the game, recent fights favour the job), it's meta and used so much, despite a lot of people wanting more, I think Dark knight being "Good/meta" this expansion might actually hurt the jobs design, if it means we aren't getting any major (Drk literally got oblation and a few ogcds this expansion...) changes next expansion...

With Warrior, It's sort of the opposite A lot of people are really happy with how the job plays (Personally I felt like Shadowbringers warrior was way way better), In general it doesn't need major changes, I personally would like to see more then "fell cleave" on it's gauge, having overpower and gap closer tied to gauge made the job interesting (also bonus that you dont spam gap closers for extra dps) I also don't really think im a fan of warrior "healing the party"

Paladin, is likely still in the worst spot (better then it was in 6.2), its rework failed to do serval things correctly, but it was a step in the right direction, I just feel like now its pressing atonement way too much, got way too much hotbar bloat ("But not on mine, I got space!" No I'm talking about your average player), fight or flight, circle of scorn and goring blade all feel really pointless, Cover, Clemency and Shield bash are really weird situational utilities, that could be made into something much better, In general its rotation feels a bit messy. Personally I think this job still needs a redesign but It should keep aspects of the rework, such as Divine Might and shortened req, the filler rotation in general needs a rework though, Some of its defensives should be made into abilities that you more often consider, Oath Gauge should be reworked so that its more interactive with the job.

I do think in general tanks have their issues, War/Pld not being meta? I mean if one or both were top DPS that would just mean Gunbreaker or Dark knight wouldn't be meta, I think focusing on the strengths of "non-meta" tanks and giving them reasons to be used outside of just Damage buttons in general helps, I'm not opposed to the gap between tanks all being closed if possible but it's going to be a constant balancing act.

[Marxam]

Utility is largely irrelevant. Nobody takes DRK and GNB because of their utility - it's all about their damage, which both PLD and WAR are noticeably lacking at the moment. Yeah, they're also pretty useful for cheesing certain things, but so is WAR. If the cheesing and utility outweighed the damage, you'd be seeing WAR used far more than you do.

Bring back 3 min holmgang I say lol.

Seriously though they need to buff WAR and PLD. WAR doesn't even need much right now. Just a 20-30 potency buff to IC and PR will do enough to bring it closer to DRK. The buffs to SE and SP were nice but in your burst window you are not pressing those buttons, especially in your opener when you have access to three IC and one PR, in addition to FC spam. That's why their dmg is lacking. You got two jobs who spam their entire tool kit every 2 mins vs. two jobs that have only 7-8 gcds to deal that dmg. GCD's just need to hit harder in those windows.

WARs dmg can be solved in the next expansion if they brought back Unchained and gave it an effect to boost your potency every 2 mins. Regardless, I always have to ask this question when I post. If all the tanks have equally powerful and homogenized defensive cds(in some cases TBN is better), why is there a dmg discrepancy?

[Fryfor]

The only issue I had in DSR was being down one mitigation tool during P6 double dragons prior to the rework. Easily was alleviated with a single healer cooldown, crazy.

Just play what you like, dude.