An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Kaedan]

SP loss with possibility to buy it back make no sense at all. It's pretty much like having no SP loss but with an extra step.

Umm... except that you would have to lose either Gil or Anima (preferably Anima) to get it back.

[PandaTaru]

<my bad>

Umm... except that you would have to lose either Gil or Anima (preferably Anima) to get it back.

it's not like anima is something easy to get by either. Anima lose vs SP loss would make SP loss look like a joke.

[Kaedan]

dude hold your horses and use the search feature to check what I posted against SP/EXP lose. lol.

Huh?

/10char

[Rentahamster]

Why does everyone still think that SP loss would come with ranking down?

I doesn't necessarily have to, but that's what happened in FF11, and that's what most people relate to.

Essentially, we both have the same discouragement: Anima loss. But the SP loss system allows people to choose... they can choose to either lose SP or lose Anima. In your system, you have to lose Anima.

Yeah, they have to lose anima if they die, but accompanied with the adjustments are made to how anima is used, it wouldn't be such a big deal. My adjustment of letting you "return" for 0 anima would save much more anima than you'd lose by dying. Also, with more transport options to choose from, anima wouldn't be that valuable anymore. Besides - casual players will have lots of anima anyway sine they don't play that often.

To some people, their Anima is more useful to them than their SP.

Hmm, really? I don't think so, personally.

And what about when someone reaches 0 Anima? Then it's no different than it is now and they are free to just die over and over, wasting everyone's time.

What about it? If they die over and over, they'll never get anymore anima, they will get a reputation for being a terrible player, and they'll never be able to get the "staying alive" bonus. There's enough reasons not to die even if you have 0 anima.

Not saying your idea is necessarily bad, but there are a couple of holes, and I don't see "positive reinforcement" as the most effective (and you still have negative reinforcement in there too, so it's ends up in a wash anyway).

I don't really see the holes you mention.

"Positive reinforcement" is the best form of encouragement. Getting praised for being good is more fun then getting punished for being bad.

I do still have negative reinforcement. Just a little. I didn't say I wanted to do away with it completely. I said I wanted the emphasis to be on positive rather than negative. Like, 75% positive, 25% negative.

FF11 was 100% negative - which made death scary, yes, but it put off a lot of players.

If this system were 100% positive, that too would be a little too "carebear" and boring.

That's why I think a nice mix would appeal to the most players while not reducing enjoyment for anyone.

[PandaTaru]

Huh?

/10char

I replied thinking you were replying to me as you replied pretty quickly after my last post, but then re-reading it it wasn't for me :P my bad, I'm tired.

[Kiko]

This is an idea also... since life is so precious... I am not sure if is out there yet cuz i havent seen it, but i am talkin about auto-raise. How about if the FFXIV add auto-raise to the game not as a Spell but as you doin a one time pay to a NPC only in the area you are atm. I am talkin about lots of money tho since life worth a lot... just to make it a lil real... i mean we got raise but u need another person to raise... but thats only when you are in a party... how about if you are lvling or doin a lvl quest by ur self... lets keep in mind this game also is base on you doin things on your own... is not like ffxi... but hey it just an idea... just trying to help

[Rentahamster]

@ Kaedan

Oh, one more thing about your "buyback" plan. I understand what you're trying to do, and the goals are good, but the implementation is a little flawed from a cost/benefit and game design standpoint.

If players can buyback lost SP by spending gil or anima, they will ALWAYS do that. Every. Single. Time. We are overflowing with gil as it is, and otherwise people will never go below, say, 20 anima, so that they'll always have a buffer to counteract the SP loss. Basically, 20 anima will become the new 0 anima.

If you give the players a "choice" of buyback, but they ALWAYS do the buyback option, it's not much of a choice, is it? You may as well have it be gil or anima loss on death, because effectively, it will come to that result 99% of the time anyway.

Also, if they risk losing SP permanently when dying while still under weakness, players will always just stay at the crystal after death 99% of the time to be safe (unless they have to reclaim a NM or something).

It's much easier to prevent death once you've already died and returned: just stay put.

It's much harder to prevent death the first time.

[Kaedan]

Yeah, they have to lose anima if they die, but accompanied with the adjustments are made to how anima is used, it wouldn't be such a big deal. My adjustment of letting you "return" for 0 anima would save much more anima than you'd lose by dying. Also, with more transport options to choose from, anima wouldn't be that valuable anymore. Besides - casual players will have lots of anima anyway sine they don't play that often.

I am also all for making Return cost 0 Anima.

Hmm, really? I don't think so, personally.

1 Anima = 4 hours. You can get a LOT of SP in 4 hours.

What about it? If they die over and over, they'll never get anymore anima, they will get a reputation for being a terrible player, and they'll never be able to get the "staying alive" bonus. There's enough reasons not to die even if you have 0 anima.

Exactly. Your system is actually HARSHER than my system. At least with a SP loss/buyback system, you can choose between losing SP and losing Anima.

I don't really see the holes you mention.

-Your system forces you to lose Anima only. SP loss system allows you to choose between SP loss or Anima loss.
-When someone's Anima drops to 0, we are back in the same boat we're in now.

"Positive reinforcement" is the best form of encouragement. Getting praised for being good is more fun then getting punished for being bad.

Actually, this is continually debated by psychologists and professionals in Law enforcement and Correction. It cannot be determined one way or the other which is more effective... there are good cases for both. I'm personally against positive reinforcement as a deterrent to negative action since I am more convinced by that side of the scientific argument.

FF11 was 100% negative - which made death scary, yes, but it put off a lot of players.

Agreed. Which is why I suggested an alternate system which is discouraging, but not too harsh. As I said, your system is actually more harsh than mine, since you don't have the choice between losing SP and losing Anima.


So how about this? No loss of anything... no durability loss, no SP loss, no Anima loss. We just increase the weakness timer to 10 minutes. Since time is the most valuable asset in MMOs, that should be a viable deterrent.

[Kaedan]

@ Kaedan

Oh, one more thing about your "buyback" plan. I understand what you're trying to do, and the goals are good, but the implementation is a little flawed from a cost/benefit and game design standpoint.

If players can buyback lost SP by spending gil or anima, they will ALWAYS do that. Every. Single. Time. We are overflowing with gil as it is, and otherwise people will never go below, say, 20 anima, so that they'll always have a buffer to counteract the SP loss. Basically, 20 anima will become the new 0 anima.

No, they won't.

1 Anima = 4 hours. You can gain a lot of SP in 4 hours.

You are making the false assumption that everyone will always buy it back. It's still a choice.

[Nephera]

No, they won't.

1 Anima = 4 hours. You can gain a lot of SP in 4 hours.

You are making the false assumption that everyone will always buy it back. It's still a choice.

well i mean its also a choice to use the repair npc but very few people do