Ninja needs its knees broken

[Novani]

It doesn't have those all at once. It is a *choice* between high ranged damage or a shield or self-heal. It's a choice between damage or stun. It's a choice between holding Shukuchi as an escape button, or committing it for extra damage.

Double stun, do not forget that part, and that is very easily chained too even with high ping. There is a reason why Ninjas are routinely a source of frustration for every other class on the field, they have an answer to everything and can take advantage of everything, add in an LB that literally laughs at the concept of health (Range certainly doesn't feel like 20 yalms on it either) and it's easily chainable.

That it can't use all these things at once is moot point, they don't need to, because they rarely need to solo anything and if they do, they have an answer for that as well (hide and run away). The nerfs they've been getting hit with do not address the core problems of the class's inherent balance when put in a team environment under the current PvP situation, hence why people find issue with it.

If it was alone, against itself, it'd be fine. As it stands, ninjas risk considerably less than their teammates for greater rewards, I mean heck you can outright win most duels without even knowing what you're even doing. it is simply over-tuned and every patch concerning their balance keeps attacking the wrong part of the problem. Note that I say over-tuned, not overpowered, it does still have mortality meaning you do need a bit of strategy in your tactics, for which I'm personally grateful for because I actually like the Ninja class - just not in PvP in its current state.

So what's the solution? It could be environmental. Ninja is doing its job yes, and they work best when teamed, but who doesn't? I don't believe all of its frustration inducing moments are wholly its own fault, something as simple as diminishing returns on crowd control effects might at least calm attitudes towards it, reliance on purify is ridiculous, it never helps, and especially not against ninja's instant double-tap. But this is just conjecture at this point.

[AtomicBomb]

NIN is the only job in the new PvP that feels complete. Every other job is missing at least one extra ability. A good start would be to decouple movement abilities from damage abilities (looking at you, Elusive Jump).

Of course the whiners here would rather drag the one fun job down than lift the others up...

[Gserpent]

Double stun, do not forget that part, and that is very easily chained too even with high ping. There is a reason why Ninjas are routinely a source of frustration for every other class on the field, they have an answer to everything and can take advantage of everything, add in an LB that literally laughs at the concept of health (Range certainly doesn't feel like 20 yalms on it either) and it's easily chainable.

It's a stun that's either 2 sec or 4 sec and it consumes two GCDs to perform, and which deals minimal damage instead of the 16,000 damage a Hyosho or Goka would have done with that mudra charge. During which, the NIN cannot use any other attack actions except shurikens, which themselves have a cooldown. It's also NIN's only gap closer other than Shukuchi, and Shukuchi is doubling as one of NIN's primary sources of burst damage and only escape button.

Seiton is massively overstated if you're not talking about LP games. Without the kind of coordination necessary to "guarantee" instant Seiton hits, it's strictly C tier material, mostly used to finish off people who were going to be dying anyway and effectively just being a worse Meteodrive.

Just tonight I had a NIN use Seiton on me when I was below half health, in the middle of my Biolysis GCD, and I didn't begin healing until after he was already stabbing me... and Seiton still failed to connect. This isn't some rare occurrence, this is basically every single night that I play and there are people playing NIN (so, every night.) I've also seen people killed by Seiton at 80% HP and they'd been at 80% HP for at least two or three seconds.

It's a complete garbage ability in every fucking sense of the word, because it's wholly reliant on server tickrate and network code in a game with quite possibly the worst fucking network code of any game released in the past 10 years. There are probably PS2 games that are more responsive and snappy than fucking XIV. Seiton is S tier *in theory* but I have literally never seen it pan out that way. Maybe I need to watch more LP tournaments or something.

I'm also willing to accept that it might just be because of Square-Enix *completely* fucking up the network code with 6.3. Hell, I still get severe lag every now and then in games, usually during the first fight. Sounds don't play, animations don't play, and events register a few seconds behind realtime. When I see someone derp out and just fall over dead in the first fight, I just assume they're getting screwed by that lag. 6.3 fucked up a lot of stuff.

[Duskane]

I honestly just think Seiton Tenchou should be replaced, I think a guaranteed death if you snapshot at <50% HP is just utter BS.

its an incredibly sacky LB and just feels bad
much rather it get replaced

[Elfidan]

The other odd bit about Seiton is the fact that most of the limit break are a PVE skill co-opted into a powerful attack. If not that then they are entirely original(WOOOO WHM LAZURZ CHARGIN UP~). Seiton however is like 'yes you could have one assassinate, but why not also have Super Assassinate'. Following this line of thinking what if Seiton was replaced with Hellfrog Medium, but the potency rises based on recent ninjutsu landed on targets within area of effect?

[Llynethil]

Completely moot points as you can preuse shield, do high ranged damage while taking almost 0 damage yourself to make them lose a bunch of hp and force recovery spam (which should be what ranged physicals should be for), then jump in with hard stun and do high melee burst damage and kill something while you still have your 4 charges of spam recover up then run away while still having an extra healing ontop of it if need be.

You don't need all that survivability, your job is basically like that of a jungler in a moba, you wait for someone else to engage, then you go in and assassinate the main threat, and get back out.
Why ff14 players don't get this is beyond me, and it's the very reason why they added rediculous bloated kits like that of ninja and ideas like the dr's in frontline, because the playerbase overall doesn't get what their role is supposed to be in anything non pve related.

[Cidel]

NIN is completely fine.

This.

The people complaining always sound like the type of people who'd still carelessly whack away at a SAM with Chiten up, full LB and a giant red "Ignore" marker over their head or get nailed by an obvious DRG LB because they're too busy tunnel visioning or pulling back from a PLD or DRK that just popped their LB and will keep trying to kill them through their LB through sheer willpower. If you can't keep your HP above 50% and are sitting at enough MP to Recuperate, that's on you. A misleading server tic can completely waste a NIN's LB if the target reacted to their HP level accordingly, so its not simply a "press x to win" LB any more than MCH's, which by the way, will probably kill most people sitting under 50% HP as well.

People are just bad at the game and just want to cry about the thing that killed them.

[Towa-Musa]

lets not forget that the shield lets you take little to no damage from enemy LBs unless its another ninja/samurai

[Azuri]

I don't care about most things with Ninja but detarget on Shukuchi has to go. With how shit targetting system in this game is forcing someone to retarget you is an incredibly potent mitigation tool.

[Towa-Musa]

I don't care about most things with Ninja but detarget on Shukuchi has to go. With how shit targetting system in this game is forcing someone to retarget you is an incredibly potent mitigation tool.

thats working as intended.