Ninja needs its knees broken

[Llynethil]

The lb is fine, it's the bloat of their kit that's the problem.

You can't have a job that has and strong melee damage, and strong ranged damage, and a pretty substantial shield, and hard cc, and an extra heal, and high mobility.

Imho, the heal and shield need to go, there's 0 reason for them to be there, you're supposed to be a get in, kill quickly, get out job, you don't need a shield that strong and more healing ontop of it, you're not a frontline melee job like sam or drg, you don't need it.

You don't need that level of defense on a high damage offensive character, it's just overkill and bad design.

[Gserpent]

You can't have a job that has and strong melee damage, and strong ranged damage, and a pretty substantial shield, and hard cc, and an extra heal, and high mobility.

It doesn't have those all at once. It is a *choice* between high ranged damage or a shield or self-heal. It's a choice between damage or stun. It's a choice between holding Shukuchi as an escape button, or committing it for extra damage.

A NIN spending absolutely everything on offense does less burst than almost any other melee (it's good damage but it's across several GCDs) and has absolutely zero sustain or defense - it cannot teleport away, it cannot use the Huton shield or Meisui heal, it is just meat on the table. A NIN that commits everything to defense is very hard to kill, indeed, but has the lowest damage in the game (even worse than PLD) and also lacks control (at least PLD has that 3 sec stun to secure kills with.) A NIN that splits the difference does good damage and is reasonably hard to kill, but doesn't do anywhere near as much damage as other classes, and isn't necessarily harder to kill than some other classes.

NIN has a wide toolkit, but it cannot access all of that toolkit simultaneously. It has to balance resource spending on the fly and understand when to go aggressive and when to be defensive.

NIN is fine. People are just bad at the game and just want to cry about the thing that killed them.

[Novani]

It doesn't have those all at once. It is a *choice* between high ranged damage or a shield or self-heal. It's a choice between damage or stun. It's a choice between holding Shukuchi as an escape button, or committing it for extra damage.

Double stun, do not forget that part, and that is very easily chained too even with high ping. There is a reason why Ninjas are routinely a source of frustration for every other class on the field, they have an answer to everything and can take advantage of everything, add in an LB that literally laughs at the concept of health (Range certainly doesn't feel like 20 yalms on it either) and it's easily chainable.

That it can't use all these things at once is moot point, they don't need to, because they rarely need to solo anything and if they do, they have an answer for that as well (hide and run away). The nerfs they've been getting hit with do not address the core problems of the class's inherent balance when put in a team environment under the current PvP situation, hence why people find issue with it.

If it was alone, against itself, it'd be fine. As it stands, ninjas risk considerably less than their teammates for greater rewards, I mean heck you can outright win most duels without even knowing what you're even doing. it is simply over-tuned and every patch concerning their balance keeps attacking the wrong part of the problem. Note that I say over-tuned, not overpowered, it does still have mortality meaning you do need a bit of strategy in your tactics, for which I'm personally grateful for because I actually like the Ninja class - just not in PvP in its current state.

So what's the solution? It could be environmental. Ninja is doing its job yes, and they work best when teamed, but who doesn't? I don't believe all of its frustration inducing moments are wholly its own fault, something as simple as diminishing returns on crowd control effects might at least calm attitudes towards it, reliance on purify is ridiculous, it never helps, and especially not against ninja's instant double-tap. But this is just conjecture at this point.

[Gserpent]

Double stun, do not forget that part, and that is very easily chained too even with high ping. There is a reason why Ninjas are routinely a source of frustration for every other class on the field, they have an answer to everything and can take advantage of everything, add in an LB that literally laughs at the concept of health (Range certainly doesn't feel like 20 yalms on it either) and it's easily chainable.

It's a stun that's either 2 sec or 4 sec and it consumes two GCDs to perform, and which deals minimal damage instead of the 16,000 damage a Hyosho or Goka would have done with that mudra charge. During which, the NIN cannot use any other attack actions except shurikens, which themselves have a cooldown. It's also NIN's only gap closer other than Shukuchi, and Shukuchi is doubling as one of NIN's primary sources of burst damage and only escape button.

Seiton is massively overstated if you're not talking about LP games. Without the kind of coordination necessary to "guarantee" instant Seiton hits, it's strictly C tier material, mostly used to finish off people who were going to be dying anyway and effectively just being a worse Meteodrive.

Just tonight I had a NIN use Seiton on me when I was below half health, in the middle of my Biolysis GCD, and I didn't begin healing until after he was already stabbing me... and Seiton still failed to connect. This isn't some rare occurrence, this is basically every single night that I play and there are people playing NIN (so, every night.) I've also seen people killed by Seiton at 80% HP and they'd been at 80% HP for at least two or three seconds.

It's a complete garbage ability in every fucking sense of the word, because it's wholly reliant on server tickrate and network code in a game with quite possibly the worst fucking network code of any game released in the past 10 years. There are probably PS2 games that are more responsive and snappy than fucking XIV. Seiton is S tier *in theory* but I have literally never seen it pan out that way. Maybe I need to watch more LP tournaments or something.

I'm also willing to accept that it might just be because of Square-Enix *completely* fucking up the network code with 6.3. Hell, I still get severe lag every now and then in games, usually during the first fight. Sounds don't play, animations don't play, and events register a few seconds behind realtime. When I see someone derp out and just fall over dead in the first fight, I just assume they're getting screwed by that lag. 6.3 fucked up a lot of stuff.

[VoidsentStatus]

Seiton is massively overstated if you're not talking about LP games. Without the kind of coordination necessary to "guarantee" instant Seiton hits, it's strictly C tier material, mostly used to finish off people who were going to be dying anyway and effectively just being a worse Meteodrive.

Just tonight I had a NIN use Seiton on me when I was below half health, in the middle of my Biolysis GCD, and I didn't begin healing until after he was already stabbing me... and Seiton still failed to connect. This isn't some rare occurrence, this is basically every single night that I play and there are people playing NIN (so, every night.) I've also seen people killed by Seiton at 80% HP and they'd been at 80% HP for at least two or three seconds.

It's a complete garbage ability in every fucking sense of the word, because it's wholly reliant on server tickrate and network code in a game with quite possibly the worst fucking network code of any game released in the past 10 years. There are probably PS2 games that are more responsive and snappy than fucking XIV. Seiton is S tier *in theory* but I have literally never seen it pan out that way. Maybe I need to watch more LP tournaments or something.

I'm also willing to accept that it might just be because of Square-Enix *completely* fucking up the network code with 6.3. Hell, I still get severe lag every now and then in games, usually during the first fight. Sounds don't play, animations don't play, and events register a few seconds behind realtime. When I see someone derp out and just fall over dead in the first fight, I just assume they're getting screwed by that lag. 6.3 fucked up a lot of stuff.

If you're referring to on Dynamis, you're playing on the worst pvp data center with people wintrading openly. There were ninja's last season missing LB's on purpose to soft throw matches and didn't hit a single LB for several games straight. If we're talking Crystal/top 100 ninja's, everything you said goes out of the window, they rarely if at all miss LB and its the reason ninjas dominated season 1 climbing wise. The "coordination necessary" to get a kill with it is a joke. all you need is 1-2 shurikens into a 2 big cooldowns -> LB or a single LB chain. You can Misery->Whm LB->Ninja LB, Wyrmwind->Nastrond->Shuriken->Ninja LB, dry MCH LB -> Ninja LB etc. It's more of a speed aspect than dealing with healing because it should casted before that person can even realize they should need to heal to avoid being in danger. The reason ninja is annoying to most ranged classes is purely because after you get so much as tickled you can get nuked and lb'd before you can even react to the point your only safety is staying near full health and out of attack range of their teammates so they can't combo.

[Llynethil]

Completely moot points as you can preuse shield, do high ranged damage while taking almost 0 damage yourself to make them lose a bunch of hp and force recovery spam (which should be what ranged physicals should be for), then jump in with hard stun and do high melee burst damage and kill something while you still have your 4 charges of spam recover up then run away while still having an extra healing ontop of it if need be.

You don't need all that survivability, your job is basically like that of a jungler in a moba, you wait for someone else to engage, then you go in and assassinate the main threat, and get back out.
Why ff14 players don't get this is beyond me, and it's the very reason why they added rediculous bloated kits like that of ninja and ideas like the dr's in frontline, because the playerbase overall doesn't get what their role is supposed to be in anything non pve related.

[Gserpent]

Completely moot points as you can preuse shield, do high ranged damage while taking almost 0 damage yourself to make them lose a bunch of hp and force recovery spam (which should be what ranged physicals should be for), then jump in with hard stun and do high melee burst damage and kill something while you still have your 4 charges of spam recover up then run away while still having an extra healing ontop of it if need be.

You don't need all that survivability, your job is basically like that of a jungler in a moba, you wait for someone else to engage, then you go in and assassinate the main threat, and get back out.
Why ff14 players don't get this is beyond me, and it's the very reason why they added rediculous bloated kits like that of ninja and ideas like the dr's in frontline, because the playerbase overall doesn't get what their role is supposed to be in anything non pve related.

Preusing Huton requires significant setup time. Shurikens are only 6k damage per GCD on a 10 sec recharge timer, equivalent to a BRD's fillers. Hyosho and Goka are 16k but consume a mudra charge.

Melee burst combo requires Assassinate (Shukuchi) and a prepared Aeolian Edge, along with Bunshin. It's not something you can do at the drop of a hat. If they're using a mudra on Raiju, then they cannot deal damage during that time except for Shurikens. Raiju effectively locks away all other GCD damage actions until they've spent both charges. If they commit Shukuchi, Raiju, and Hyosho to a burst cycle, then they have absolutely no defenses available. They have less inherent defense than a White Mage.

NIN cannot do all of what you've described, all at once, with no prep time. You're coming across as someone that loses to something and then whines about it. If NIN's so broken, play it yourself and climb to top 10 on your DC.

[KongouPrime]

People will always complain about NIN because they can't play against it and that shows when threads like this pop up almost everyday with people crying about the class being broken

NIN gets almost nerfed every patch because people complain about "oh no, NIN lb executes when you're below 50% HP" yet you got MNK for example that can straight up 1-shot everything that isn't a tank with 2 keys and people barely complain about it (when compared to NIN's case)

If you think the class is super broken like you say, play it and then you will see for yourself how you're wrong


TLDR; People who complain about NIN never played it and it shows

[Kansene]

People will always complain about NIN because they can't play against it and that shows when threads like this pop up almost everyday with people crying about the class being broken

NIN gets almost nerfed every patch because people complain about "oh no, NIN lb executes when you're below 50% HP" yet you got MNK for example that can straight up 1-shot everything that isn't a tank with 2 keys and people barely complain about it (when compared to NIN's case)

If you think the class is super broken like you say, play it and then you will see for yourself how you're wrong


TLDR; People who complain about NIN never played it and it shows

NIN is too durable in FL, otherwise fine imo. Never felt they were too strong or anything in CC.
I don't like insta-kill LBs, but I don't think they're necessarily OP, just distasteful.

[Towa-Musa]

People will always complain about NIN because they can't play against it and that shows when threads like this pop up almost everyday with people crying about the class being broken

NIN gets almost nerfed every patch because people complain about "oh no, NIN lb executes when you're below 50% HP" yet you got MNK for example that can straight up 1-shot everything that isn't a tank with 2 keys and people barely complain about it (when compared to NIN's case)

If you think the class is super broken like you say, play it and then you will see for yourself how you're wrong


TLDR; People who complain about NIN never played it and it shows

ninja is only OP in certain situations (I.E 5 or more people are low hp and unable to heal.)