VIERA AND HROTHGAR COMPLAINT MEGATHREAD

[Caro178]

It's great that we're getting more hair for hroths and viera now, but I am once again going to complain about the lack of hats and helmets.

We have so many mods that allow us to wear them. They look nice, excellent even. The head shape, clipping and whatever the devs had problems with are not an issue with them at all. Why are they still not a thing officially? Just take the mods and implement them in the game and pay the modders if nothing else. It's been one and a half expansions already (´L_` )

I don't disagree with you, but considering there was never a promise to fix anything at all I see our current situation as being pretty fortunate. The team communicated from the get-go that Hrothgar and Viera would be a limited race: one gender selection each and unique hairstyles. They would never just take hat mods made by creators and implement them into the game even if said creators were offering to give away or sell their work. They've been adding tons of QoL features for combat/raiding that have already existed as plugins for ages, but they didn't ask the creators of the plugins for access even if it would have meant an easier job for them. They just redid all of it themselves and in their preferred way.

As of yet there has been no promise that we will get any sort of extra hat compatibility. That doesn't mean the announcement won't eventually come, but it isn't a "why don't we have this feature yet?" thing for me. There can't be an expectation of something that hasn't even been officially addressed since Shadowbringers.

I think we have a few potential scenarios from here on out.

Best case: we get an announcement between now and 7.0 that they have been slowly working on headgear and it will all be ready alongside female Hrothgar when the new expansion drops.

Worst case: 7.0 brings only female Hrothgar in a state as up to date as male Hrothgar and we continue being drip fed hairstyles every patch.

In between case: somewhere in the middle there's a third possibility where they release hat compatibility the way they've been releasing hairstyles: in batches.

Even in the best case scenario we're waiting until the next expansion, and that's a massive "IF" to begin with because, again, nobody has addressed this subject in a long time. I'm definitely hoping as well, but there's no way they don't know how fervent the requests have been. After male Viera/fem Hroth I really would be surprised if hat updates never come. I know it sucks to always have to think "patience" but that's the only realistic approach. I can't be disappointed about something that was never promised to begin.

[Denji]

snip snap snop

Er, actually. The way they revealed it clearly indicated that they weren't going to convert past armour/whatever to work with it but future gear would function correctly. Same with the hair thing. It was "limited" as in our content was to be restricted to the expansion they were released in and onward. I'm really not overly fond of this idea that we were always and forever going to be one way or another since... that wasn't the case and even before many of these threads began popping up we were given a paltry, albeit offensive breadcrumb of updates for them.

There's also the fact that a lot of hrothgar NPCs (when they were still creating hrothgar NPCs...) in say, Bozja, have hair and variations of facial features that players aren't allowed to use themselves. It's one of those things where it's like... there's already content there and it functions and we can see it. There's also the whole thing to do with fanta wherein they were intending on locking key features behind fanta for hrothgar while other races could just use the hairdresser.

Like... they fixed that in the end but like, it's pretty clear where they were intending on going with this. Cash shop. Money. Diamonds. Gold. Green. They were going to remove our ears entirely so they can just drop roe helmets on our heads and then lock any new customization behind spending cash for features that other races have free access to.

And if it worked I could see them doing it to other races, too. Perhaps not the ear removal but the moving of previously free features behind the cash shop. It really did feel like they were testing the waters to add additional monetization and it blew up in their faces.

As for if we will continue to get more or go back to status quo, never updated, worst case? ... Dunno. Square's CEO is a money-grubbing bag of... unpleasantness who's obsessed with crypto and NFTs but he's also ancient and has no idea what he's talking about. I'd be surprised if he can send an e-mail by himself let alone actually comprehend what an NFT is. If there was anyone to blame for the lack of polish we were given with the "limited races" this expansion I'd probably point several fingers at him.

In fact the most recent update was... well, pretty nice all things considered. Some people complain about how short it was but unlike past major patches in, say, shb? There was a lot more quality of life fixes and maintaining of older mechanics/in-game systems in order to keep them functioning, up to date and useful. We got hair and despite some complaints about the lack of volume to the hair itself, it's way better than what we got last time, too.


I think we can probably ease off the doomposting a little bit although if yet another cashshop item is released and hroths/viera are excluded I'm gonna get mad. If it's 20 bucks a sale you can afford to spend a few hours to make the model work for them. It's not like they're hand-crafting the model for each user.

[Caro178]

I will never believe that they locked Hrothgar editing behind Fantasia to incentivize the cash shop. It makes no sense. You know the saying "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity?" (or ignorance or incompetence.) That's the devs regarding Hrothgar. There are dozens of more intelligent business choices they could make to incentivize cash shop purchases than targeting what I'm sure was expected to be a low population race for a 10$ charge every now and then. Your average Miqo gposer chilling in Limsa has probably spent more on Fantasias in a month than many Hrothgar players have spent ever.

[SturmChurro]

I will never believe that they locked Hrothgar editing behind Fantasia to incentivize the cash shop. It makes no sense. You know the saying "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity?" (or ignorance or incompetence.) That's the devs regarding Hrothgar. There are dozens of more intelligent business choices they could make to incentivize cash shop purchases than targeting what I'm sure was expected to be a low population race for a 10$ charge every now and then. Your average Miqo gposer chilling in Limsa has probably spent more on Fantasias in a month than many Hrothgar players have spent ever.

I don't know if that was really the intention, I think it was rather that they simply wanted these to be limited races, and miscalculated the community reaction. Rather, what they built would allow them to maintain their patch schedule, as was said. However, considering how long it took to "fix", I think the fantasias were a fairly nice bonus.

[Iscah]

Er, actually. The way they revealed it clearly indicated that they weren't going to convert past armour/whatever to work with it but future gear would function correctly. Same with the hair thing. It was "limited" as in our content was to be restricted to the expansion they were released in and onward.

They never said that, and anyone who thinks they did was hearing what they wanted to hear.

The devs said from the beginning that hats would not work because of the way the races' "unique heads" were designed, and more recently IIRC said that even though they were starting to adjust more things, they may never reach full compatibility.

The easiest text reference is the Letter from the Producer LXII released shortly after.

As you may remember from the Tokyo Fan Festival keynote, I mentioned that due to the special design of the Hrothgar and Viera heads, equipped headgear would not display.

Glasses and so forth would not display either at first, but after seeing how many people called for us to do something, anything, to address this after the announcement, the character team took it upon themselves to use their spare moments to make it possible [...]

The wording seems telling about what their plans were from the start, if there was any ambiguity in the original announcement. Headgear would not display full stop; glasses and such would not display at first. Then the character team found the time to urgently adjust glasses so they would display at first.

There was never a promise that everything would work eventually.


Also, NPCs with unique face/hair combinations tells us nothing more than that the devs have extra control over these things. It's no different to Auri characters such as Yugiri and Mide having horns that don't match their face. Players can't control that, but devs can do a lot with adding custom faces or transferring them from other models.

[Midareyukki]

I will never believe that they locked Hrothgar editing behind Fantasia to incentivize the cash shop. It makes no sense. You know the saying "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity?" (or ignorance or incompetence.) That's the devs regarding Hrothgar. There are dozens of more intelligent business choices they could make to incentivize cash shop purchases than targeting what I'm sure was expected to be a low population race for a 10$ charge every now and then. Your average Miqo gposer chilling in Limsa has probably spent more on Fantasias in a month than many Hrothgar players have spent ever.

I don't know if that was really the intention, I think it was rather that they simply wanted these to be limited races, and miscalculated the community reaction. Rather, what they built would allow them to maintain their patch schedule, as was said. However, considering how long it took to "fix", I think the fantasias were a fairly nice bonus.

It very likely wasn't the intention. This race is so niche it in no way would make any impact.
It was, however, pretty shortsighted of them.
And the fact that even after 3 years they still go "We weren't expecting this reaction" just proves how backwards their logic was altogether.

The wording seems telling about what their plans were from the start, if there was any ambiguity in the original announcement. Headgear would not display full stop; glasses and such would not display at first. Then the character team found the time to urgently adjust glasses so they would display at first.

There was never a promise that everything would work eventually.


Also, NPCs with unique face/hair combinations tells us nothing more than that the devs have extra control over these things. It's no different to Auri characters such as Yugiri and Mide having horns that don't match their face. Players can't control that, but devs can do a lot with adding custom faces or transferring them from other models.

And thank god people spoke up about it, because that decision was just as backwards as the first iteration of Diadem.

Because it did at least get them to reconsider their stance, both on the races being more complete + on the genders being added.

Though I'm really not convinced they did those headgear things out of the kindness of their hearts. Discounting the time they had building up to Male Viera, they still could have added in more headgear in the patches following release.

Yet they didn't.

Not even events.

So them going "oh, it was just at first" really is moot.

[Iscah]

Though I'm really not convinced they did those headgear things out of the kindness of their hearts. Discounting the time they had building up to Male Viera, they still could have added in more headgear in the patches following release.

Yet they didn't.

Not even events.

So them going "oh, it was just at first" really is moot.

I think you're missing my point.

They never said they would add everything; they said "we will add some things later" and were pushed by fan feedback to hastily implement those things in time for launch rather than later.

Hats have not been added since because they were not designed to wear hats, ever.

Maybe they can fix it in future, but that seems to be a matter of fixing the heads rather than the hats, and they have not promised to do so, so it is incorrect and misleading to say that they did promise it and have not delivered yet.

[Midareyukki]

I think you're missing my point.

They never said they would add everything; they said "we will add some things later" and were pushed by fan feedback to hastily implement those things in time for launch rather than later.

Hats have not been added since because they were not designed to wear hats, ever.

Maybe they can fix it in future, but that seems to be a matter of fixing the heads rather than the hats, and they have not promised to do so, so it is incorrect and misleading to say that they did promise it and have not delivered yet.

...I think it's the other way around. I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm not even addressing what you said. I'd say you are the one missing my point.

I'm just stating. "I don't think SE's thing with the glasses before the release of 5.0 was goodwill". It seemed more of a publicity stunt given they realized that these races weren't really going to be well-received due to limitations. So they figured they'd do that to garner some goodwill and lessen the blow.

I personally feel, given everything that's happened in the years after, that Square saved face at that time. They had those gears made. Yoshida just did it to make sure the impact of such incomplete races would be less of a shock and help foster care for the dev team.

I disagree with the hats not being a thing ever. Headgear was going to be a thing eventually, but they anticipated some work behind Yoshida's back. I do not see it as incorrect or misleading. Especially since issue then comes with the fact that they didn't do anything despite the feedback they got. Because they did move to make Male Viera right after, so clearly they saw the push for more headgear as well.

[Iscah]

I disagree with the hats not being a thing ever. Headgear was going to be a thing eventually, but they anticipated some work behind Yoshida's back. I do not see it as incorrect or misleading. Especially since issue then comes with the fact that they didn't do anything despite the feedback they got. Because they did move to make Male Viera right after, so clearly they saw the push for more headgear as well.

You're assuming that because they did the glasses behind Yoshida's back, they were also planning from the start to make hats behind his back.

There is no sign that that was the case.

If Yoshida's original outlook was "nothing now, glasses later, hats never", then the modellers' stealth-working ahead of schedule only changed that to "glasses now, hats never". It doesn't automatically mean they planned to make hats and should be onto it by now.

[Midareyukki]

You're assuming that because they did the glasses behind Yoshida's back, they were also planning from the start to make hats behind his back.

There is no sign that that was the case.

If Yoshida's original outlook was "nothing now, glasses later, hats never", then the modellers' stealth-working ahead of schedule only changed that to "glasses now, hats never". It doesn't automatically mean they planned to make hats and should be onto it by now.

No, I'm assuming because we have no further work done on it despite the feedback provided, and the whole spiel done about how we should be grateful to the members who allegedly worked behind Yoshida's back contrasts their stances since, that it was a publicity stunt. There's no sign that it wasn't the case either. And that's the issue.

I don't treat that one moment of charity to be anything worthy of praise when the rest of their attitude toward it has been one of silence.

If his original outlook was "nothing now, glasses later, hats never" were true, he'd say something else when faced with the feedback past 5.0. Which was just as vocal as the people asking for the counterpart genders. But he didn't, and given the way Yoshida confirms the team works, through Agile Development, there's just no way they did that work behind his back entirely. So I'm at least skeptical on whether that really was the case.

Because what happened was that they did that, it got implemented, then radio silence for two years until Male Viera came out and all their statements were brought into question. Because from then on, every "no can do" became "maybe with enough feedback/pestering".

Also o: you have any Live Letter quote where Yoshida specifically says that they'd never do more headgear at all? Preferrably after the release of these two races, but before Male Viera got confirmed. Not saying "lol you can't do it", just that you've proven yourself clearly more knowledgeable about what they said, so I figure you'd know more about that on that front.