What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[FirstGearFirstGear]

The Ancients are allowed to hold a grievance against Venat. They are not allowed to wipe out all of creation because they are desperately grasping for a past that can never be reclaimed. Frankly, describing that as "seeking justice" makes your entire stance suspect.

There are plenty of plausible reasons that Venat didn't explicitly lay out Zodiark, Meteion, and so forth. The most brute force is that she knew it wouldn't matter, we're in a closed time loop and a future that produces a WoL that will travel back to Elpis is going to happen. That is also not a terribly satisfying answer, but it's notable that if you go with it, Venat still tries to convince the Ancients to reject Zodiark. She knows it's hopeless, but she still tries because she loves her people and their world.

There are other reasonable excuses. Emet-Selch's defining character trait is that he's stubborn and reluctant to accept new ideas, especially one as wild as a sad space bird is the real threat we have to deal with. Telling the Convocation will mean telling Hermes which risks him deliberately sabotaging the effort to stop Meteion. And Venat has literally no proof of her claims which again are pretty wild. But more to the point, Meteion isn't why Venat sundered the world. She sundered it because the Ancients chose slavery over freedom.

Let's go back to the whole genocide thing. Because you're right, genocide is bad. And the writers of Final Fantasy XIV would agree with you! Ishgard trying to wipe out the dragons and vice versa is bad! The Garleans trying to wipe out everything that isn't Garlean is bad! The sin-eaters trying to wipe out Norvrandt is bad! Emet-Selch trying to wipe out, uh, everything is bad! And the Ancients deliberately genociding themselves so they could cling to their tainted utopia is bad. If you want to argue that Venat was preventing the Ancients from freeing their kin from Zodiark, you have to acknowledge that they were happy to keep throwing souls into him as long as they could get their paradise back. That is what Venat sundered them from. She didn't object to the summoning of Zodiark because, yeah, there was no other way to stop the Final Days. She objected to the Ancients enslaving themselves to him. It was absolutely a genocide of the Ancients and the writers assumed that people would realize, based on FF14's previous anti-genocide stance, that it was a horrible, monstrous choice. But that with the context of her beliefs and the events around her, there were no good choices.

[Graeham]

The Ancients are allowed to hold a grievance against Venat. They are not allowed to wipe out all of creation because they are desperately grasping for a past that can never be reclaimed. Frankly, describing that as "seeking justice" makes your entire stance suspect.

This wrong TopGear.

Guild member only believing the high ethic and moral. We can not supporting the genocide. Genocide is not kill the people is kill the culture. Venar is genocide because No Shadow God culture kill with sunder. King Solus it can not party all the night long. Culture gone is now sad. Writer who say Venar is herois is evil because the Venar is evil. Genocide it is evil and high ethic guild can not support. King Solus and No Shadow God rejoin is different because is revenger. King Solus kill all people in the world 2 and the world 3 and the world 4 and the world 5 and the world 6 and the world 13 it not genocide. Mustard gas war of Garlemalding it not genocide. It is like kill the farm animal because No Shadow God is God and human is not God. Guild is not the animal right activate lmao. Is eater of cheesie burger. Can not compare the pesticide to the genocide. Is in name of race darwin to making the mustard race. Guild member like the Briny explain it to you on blogosphere. Is high ethic that make guild fight the story writer. And because No Shadow God story making beautiful romance between King Solus and the Elibuss and the Hotlodeus and the Alan. We read the fic it so good. But mainly high ethic. Do not support the evil genocide. Do not support the evil loprabbit. Do not support the time travel only support if it bring back No Shadow God in the patch 70.

Understand. OK.

[SaitoHikari]

After having a year to think about it, I feel like the major problem with the story in Endwalker is that they crammed way too much into a short amount of time. But the underlying reasons for that didn't begin with Endwalker - and I'm about to say something that's probably going to be really controversial in these parts, considering the whole 'Shadowbringers good, Endwalker bad' angle that some posters are arguing in this thread.

For all the praise Shadowbringers gets, people don't seem to recognize that the storytelling in Endwalker is 100% a direct consequence of the drastic shift in storytelling that began with Shadowbringers.

Namely, the COMPLETE shift from the main antagonists being the Garlean Empire (with some Ascian stuff sprinkled throughout) which was built up for all of level 1-70, to the whole Ancient stuff for levels 70-80, which ultimately ended with Garlemald being destroyed off-screen with zero input from the main cast, with the entire plot being completely hijacked by the Ancients (and Zenos being dragged along for the ride).

And the devs were probably pressured into thinking that leaning really hard into Ancient stuff and wrapping up the End Days plot as soon as possible (at the expense of literally EVERYTHING ELSE world-building wise) was the right choice to make. Because remember guys, there were A LOT of people with really bad and short-sighted 'oh the Emet-Selch stuff was so good and Stormblood was an awful expansion, do we really have to go back to boring Empire stuff?' takes when Shadowbringers was first released. And there were signs (and I don't recall if this was outright stated by the writers themselves, I distinctly remember something to this effect being mentioned at one point) that the writers actually weren't really sure how they wanted to wrap up the story in Endwalker until halfway through Shadowbringers too.

This accelerated storytelling has been a major misstep and I'm not sure why this was ever necessary. For the record, I still think the overall story ended on a good note, but way too much happened that weren't properly explored, and all of the missed opportunities as a result of that truly rubs me the wrong way. We can't properly go back and explore the Three Great Continents in detail now, because we leapfrogged across vast distances so quickly and glossed over so many topics that there's now an intense pressure for the story to take us across the oceans and the other shards instead. It's like the writers completely wrote themselves into a corner regarding the original Three Great Continents.

(continued in next post due to character limit)

[SaitoHikari]

1) I get the impression that the writers quickly realized that killing off Emperor Varis at the end of Shadowbringers was a massive mistake. It seems like they were considering finding ways to walk that back until they realized that there was no clean way for them to do so, because the community at that point would have reacted badly to yet another character being seemingly brought back from the dead (though there have been plenty of characters that have actually stayed dead). So they settled on making sure that he was unquestionably dead with the whole Anima reveal, and because he was gone for real, they had to basically off-screen Nerva too, since there was no easy way to make HIM a major player in the plot with Varis gone.

Consider that we got the Memoria Misera fight, where the Wandering Minstrel outright tells you that the memory may not be accurate to Emperor Varis' real combat prowess (which was an obvious sign that the writers at that point hadn't yet decided if they were going to actually keep him dead).

2) We should have actually gone to Garlemald before shit hit the fan, or arrived right as it started to, instead of it (and 70 levels worth of buildup) just being destroyed off-screen.

3) On that note, Endwalker should have been split into two expansions. Or the initial story should have been entirely focused on Thavanir/a Garlemald that wasn't already off-screen'd, while the post-story should have then gone into the Moon/End Days stuff. Cramming Ala Mhigo and Doma into the same expansion was the #1 criticism of Stormblood, so I'm not sure why the writers thought that doing an extreme version of this in Endwalker by cramming four major regions into one expansion (Garlemald, Thavanir, Sharlaya, and the Moon/Ultima Thule) into the initial story was a good idea.

I'm not even going to bother with the whole 'was Venat right?' minefield, because I think a lot of those arguments are just a consequence of the accelerated storytelling not having the time to really explore a lot of the themes and topics presented in this expansion. Also, I think the current 13th shard plot is rather good, all complaints about the pacing of the rest of Endwalker aside. That said, maybe it should have been an optional trial series instead of being part of the main story. While the topics it presents are rather important, nothing would have stopped the devs from making that content mandatory for main quest progression later, like the Crystal Tower series.

[KageTokage]

3) On that note, Endwalker should have been split into two expansions. Or the initial story should have been entirely focused on Thavanir/a Garlemald that wasn't already off-screen'd, while the post-story should have then gone into the Moon/End Days stuff. Cramming Ala Mhigo and Doma into the same expansion was the #1 criticism of Stormblood, so I'm not sure why the writers thought that doing an extreme version of this in Endwalker by cramming four major regions into one expansion (Garlemald, Thavanir, Sharlaya, and the Moon/Ultima Thule) into the initial story was a good idea.

That's the thing.

Endwalker was originally intended to be two expansions as per some past interviews, with Garlemald slated as being the endpoint for the first of them, meaning the tower business was supposed to be a much more lasting threat then it was.

That would've presumably left the Final Days with an expansion to itself and a lot more time for the subplots surrounding it to develop.

[SaitoHikari]

That's the thing.

Endwalker was originally intended to be two expansions as per some past interviews, with Garlemald slated as being the endpoint for the first of them, meaning the tower business was supposed to be a much more lasting threat then it was.

That would've presumably left the Final Days with an expansion to itself and a lot more time for the subplots surrounding it to develop.

Good lord, this explains a lot. You can basically tell this was a consequence of the writers writing themselves into a corner with Varis dying and Zenos basically hijacking the plot from the Garlean side of the story.

[Sevan]

The Ancients should still be extinct.
Although a total of four people found Meteion, two of whom desperately tried to save Venat and Wol (the only reasonable explanation seems to be that they wanted Venat and Wol to retain their memories and tell people the urgent information). At the time they smiled and appeared to trust Venat and Wol, but Venat and Wol chose to withhold the information.
When the Ancients faced the disaster with no knowledge, they did their best to save their planet, and they also brought it back to life, Venat made a grand entrance, saying that there were too many sacrifices too cruel. She said she wanted to check Zodiak, many believed her, and when she had the power of these supporters, she destroyed everything.
The people she opposed, the people who supported her, the people she claimed to protect, all shattered.
But the Ancients should still be extinct.
Because they could not give color to the flowers.
Although they could create Meteion. they must not have been able to create weapons against Meteion.
Don't think this is unreasonable.
Because Venat has destroyed them all, so of course they can't create weapons.
Although it seems that if these flowers, grow in the pandaemonium, they can turn the pandaemonium into a disco.
But the ancients should be extinct, Venat is the hero.
Although it seems that she just wants, just wants, to use this opportunity to become the only supreme goddess.
She is even, the will of the planet, although it is not clear that she and the planet, have any good relationship.
Don't question it or you should stop playing the game. This is a game you have loved for so many years that you can recite almost every story setting.
Incidentally, The Twelve are the only true gods in the world.
People in other areas believe in false gods.
You are from, the most superior people.
You can make flowers change color, and your gods love your world, and you alone. You believe in the true God, the true Jesus. No wonder the pagans who believe in false gods, who use all their efforts to survive, have to become inferior monsters. People who try hard are no better than those who only sleep and say to themselves "never mind" before a disaster.
The logic here is simple: pagans deserve to die.
I am not a subtle Japanese, and I don't understand the rules of speech in the English-speaking world's online society.
I can only honestly say that this is the most chauvinistic game I have ever played.
The irony is that if I hadn't loved the game, if I hadn't read the story carefully, if I hadn't still held out hope, like a WOWER, I wouldn't have found this.

[Sevan]

I am WOL and I am a hero who has saved countless lives.
If I hadn't told Venat that in the future she would become the Supreme Goddess, the world, the vast majority of people wouldn't need to be saved by me.
I save people because people will, involuntarily, step into death.
I let there be suffering in the world first, and then I save human beings from the sufferings.
I am WOL, I am hydealyn's chosen hero.

[MikkoAkure]

That's the thing.

Endwalker was originally intended to be two expansions as per some past interviews, with Garlemald slated as being the endpoint for the first of them, meaning the tower business was supposed to be a much more lasting threat then it was.

That would've presumably left the Final Days with an expansion to itself and a lot more time for the subplots surrounding it to develop.

This seems to be an often misquoted or misunderstood fact that it was "originally intended to be 2 before being cut to 1 later" when in the original interview Yoshi-P said "1-2". What everyone takes as "oh, there were going to be two expansions and the first was just going to be Garlemald" was the interviewer asking what it would have been like if there were 2 instead after Yoshi-P's 1-2 remark.

Yoshida goes on to explain that around the time of Stormblood, the team didn’t really think about how the story would continue long term. When making Shadowbringers, it was said that about 80% of the plot points have been revealed, and he thought after ShB it may be possible to keep things going from 1-2 more expansions. Looking at the fan response immediately after ShB, he felt that there should be one more expansion.

Interviewer: If the story had been 2 expansions and continued up to 7.0, what was the planned structure?

Ishikawa: We expected that there’d be 1 expansion about Garlemald. The idea was that Anima would be the boss, then the next expansion you’d fight against Hydaelyn, Zodiark and so on.

Oda: So the flow of the story itself didn’t change too much.

They had to come up with the story in the Autumn of 2019 right after Shadowbringers released so that the cinematics team could begin work on the trailer, so all of this was thought up before the towers came into the game. Nothing was supposed to be one way or the other, just one or two and they settled on one instead of two and the story stayed the same but zoomed through at a breakneck pace.


This brings me back to my point before of Shadowbringers kind of ruining the direction of the plot despite being critically well received. Stormblood keeps pushing the story into a showdown with Garlemald but then 4.4 and 4.5 start taking the Scions away to the First and the entire plot gets derailed by a side-adventure to rescue them from a whole other dimension and prevent another Calamity while "Meanwhile, in Garlemald" the war kind of just stops and stays in a status quo while waiting for the WoL to get back and NPCs end up doing things and going on adventures we should have done.

Either Yoshi-P, Oda, or Ishikawa said something in an interview ahead of Shadowbringers' release along the lines that the players may end up feeling they "revealed too much information" and they're right. The first 90% of 5.0 doesn't exactly move the game's plot forward as a whole, but Tempest and 5.1-5.3 let the whole cat out of the bag and revealed most of the backstory of the game. This and the overwhelmingly positive response to ShB seemingly forced their hand to wrap it all up sooner rather than later.

Two expansions after Shadowbringers would have let things sink in a little longer, but considering Oda said that the story would've been the same, the people in this thread would have had the exact same criticisms of Garlemald being destroyed off-screen and the issues with Venat.

[RyuuZero]

I don't think that the EW MSQ was lackluster, it's slower than Shadowbringers and maybe more set in a way since we're on the Source again but it's stated to end the entire Hydaelyn & Zodiark Arc and that was certainly achieved. The Part that I in retrospect may like the least might be the Elpis Part, only for it's retcon nature, but that Part is still well executed.. though I may played the EW MSQ too soon with Alts since I realized feeling burned out really soon.. like a lil bit after the first Alts Playthrough and very noticible after the 2nd Alt. With that said I think you only can experience Endwalker really only once and It's true that Shadowbringers nailed the feeling & pacing way better, though my personal favorite moment in the MSQ is 4.3 so technicly I could say it's all the way down from there but I do not do that because let's face the truth: In Shadowbringers, Soken became a God and when Endwalker goes Hard in the End there is no holding back. Though it's true that I have no expectation for the Story: My Expectations for Shadowbringers were that I drive with my Regalia through Norvrandt and my Expectations for Endwalker were that I drive with my Regalia on the Moon and I didn't got disappounted. My only contempt is their Combat Job Diesgn Direction but Let's what 7.0 Dawnsinger brings to the table.