What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Absimiliard]

That's not how the rules work. Venat tells us you need the subject to recall or you can view it etched into the Aether, albeit it is unreliable. My point being the trip may not have happened but technically the events are "preserved" according to the rules unless you want to say it was one of those events prone to waning or perhaps Kairos affected it (as operates using Aether waves). But in that case why don't the rules apply to the events in the past well? Or can Venat/ whoever only pull an instance of the Kairos event only when convenient for EW critics?

The fact is it is a flavor of Venat using the echo. It's unclear whether it's common knowledge or even how reliable it is to begin with. Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

Do you think aether ignores the flow of time? Because it doesn't. An experience cannot be etched into aether if it has never occurred, just like it can't dwell in someone's memories. The trip to the First occurred earlier in the WoL's personal timeline than their trip to Elpis, meaning Elpis and its events would have no bearing whatsoever on that leg of their journey.

Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

We're told quite explicitly she withheld the truth even from her closest followers.

[Turtledeluxe]

I don't understand your question. Whether or not the trip occurred, the past could still be viewed in terms of Hermes plotting and Meteion flying off multiple times. If anything you can't really rely on the post Elpis visit instance at all because as we know, that instance cannot directly change history. The fact is the goal posts just continue moving because first it was "Venat should have told someone" then it was "Ancients casually view the past"..now here we are.

So please explain again how in the original timeline, Venat could have done better given that she did tell certain people and they failed. How could she have done better in post visit instance when it can't affect history? Where is the venat plot hole?

[Nayukhuut]

That's not how the rules work. Venat tells us you need the subject to recall or you can view it etched into the Aether, albeit it is unreliable. My point being the trip may not have happened but technically the events are "preserved" according to the rules unless you want to say it was one of those events prone to waning or perhaps Kairos affected it (as operates using Aether waves). But in that case why don't the rules apply to the events in the past well? Or can Venat/ whoever only pull an instance of the Kairos event only when convenient for EW critics?

The fact is it is a flavor of Venat using the echo. It's unclear whether it's common knowledge or even how reliable it is to begin with. Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

If we follow your rules and assume the aether method is unreliable, then we do have a subject that can recall what happened. Venat herself. The Convocation could have easily had someone they trust inspect her memories to see what's up. That plus the physical evidence would have been proof. I highly doubt that Venat and Azem were the only people who could use the Echo to see into the past. I suspect it just wasn't done wholesale in Ancient society because peering into ones memories is quite an invasion of privacy.

Also, Venat didn't even try to stop Zodiark. She only started really doing anything after he was summoned. She knew she needed him to hold off Meteion.

[Turtledeluxe]

If we follow your rules and assume the aether method is unreliable, then we do have a subject that can recall what happened. Venat herself. The Convocation could have easily had someone they trust inspect her memories to see what's up. That plus the physical evidence would have been proof. I highly doubt that Venat and Azem were the only people who could use the Echo to see into the past. I suspect it just wasn't done wholesale in Ancient society because peering into ones memories is quite an invasion of privacy.

Also, Venat didn't even try to stop Zodiark. She only started really doing anything after he was summoned. She knew she needed him to hold off Meteion.

To your first point all you're doing is strengthening my original argument which is that the onus isn't just on Venat. Other people could have done more.

To your second point, sundering is doing something imo.

I'm ar my post limit so i will summarize several points:

- It doesn't matter that the WoL doesn't have the memories to be gleaned. My point is that the experience happened in the past so artifacts, locations, observers, aether itself all act as sources to be drawn from. The end. Hyper focusing on the WoL is just a distraction.

- Regarding what Venat did prior to summoning, she had followers but its not covered a great deal because it doesn't matter. What matters is they failed and sundering was her big gamble in the face of panic and tempering. What's stupid is living in a mostly tempered world permanently.


- There's zero evidence that the Ancients were able to travel space as far as required, otherwise I'd imagine they have done it and Hermes never would have invented Meteion. In fact we have opposite evidence I've already cited. Simply knowing Meteion and Hermes are the villains isn't enough, period. While Venat telling people would've been cool, it doesn't prove any argument that the final days would have been averted.

-Also as far as other people investigating-- given the fact other people with memory in tact interacted with us investigating Meteion and Hermes, and given the onset of dynamis discovery, yes it's plausible memories would be investigated even if Venat never said a word.

- Finally spinning it like Venat could've done X y ans z when this is the finale to a 10 year story that you know very well wasn't written in advance is petty and a waste of time. We are lucky past Hydaelyn and Venat make any kind of sense at all.

[Ravenblade1979]

I don't understand your question. Whether or not the trip occurred, the past could still be viewed in terms of Hermes plotting and Meteion flying off multiple times. If anything you can't really rely on the post Elpis visit instance at all because as we know, that instance cannot directly change history. The fact is the goal posts just continue moving because first it was "Venat should have told someone" then it was "Ancients casually view the past"..now here we are.

So no

Totally right. People tend to forget that before we go to elpis. On the first when we interact with what's left of Elidibus. He actually mentions remembering we were there on elpis.

So saying that, you are correct. We couldn't change history but from him remembering sets it up for us actually being a part of what unfolded there. They reused this as well during panda raid story.

Also if you wonder had we not taken the trip. Could hythlodaeus and emet and venat stumbled upon what Hermes was doing. Or would have hermes plans gone unnoticed and the cataclysmic events happen far sooner then they did.

Like we know venat and them are wicked smart but just how smart. Something to think on.

[Turtledeluxe]

Totally right. People tend to forget that before we go to elpis. On the first when we interact with what's left of Elidibus. He actually mentions remembering we were there on elpis.

So saying that, you are correct. We couldn't change history but from him remembering sets it up for us actually being a part of what unfolded there. They reused this as well during panda raid story.

Also if you wonder had we not taken the trip. Could hythlodaeus and emet and venat stumbled upon what Hermes was doing. Or would have hermes plans gone unnoticed and the cataclysmic events happen far sooner then they did.

Like we know venat and them are wicked smart but just how smart. Something to think on.

The only thing it is unclear if he's referring to seeing Azem us or something or confirming the events of the Ew trip where we spoil the future. My point is that with or without the WoL being in Elpis there's still past to view and investigate because the original timeline, no matter what, leads to Meteion and the final days.

The reason I say this is because the WoL may have been in original Elpis but they don't remember it. So there's something going on there.

[Ravenblade1979]

You're the one moving the goalposts here.

My question was simple:
Do you believe aether ignores the flow of time? As in, do you believe the Echo could be used to see in a character's soul/aether events that version of them hadn't yet experienced? Because this is effectively what you were claiming in the post I asked my question in reply to, and it does not make sense.

Actually no. It's been setup for awhile now that the echo let's you see a person's past. Although it's not easily controlled to allow you to do so. As far as it goes. Not use in clairvoyance of seeing ones future.

[Turtledeluxe]

Actually no. It's been setup for awhile now that the echo let's you see a person's past. Although it's not easily controlled to allow you to do so. As far as it goes. Not use in clairvoyance of seeing ones future.

Fordola uses it for clairvoyance actually but it's limited and why I'm not arguing that Emet could have viewed our Elpis trip.

[Turtledeluxe]

The WoL is a fragment of Azem, not a fragment of a different version of themselves from another timeline. The events of Elpis would not be present anywhere in their being if they themselves had not been there. It's as simple as that. "Our" WoL had no involvement with Elpis or its events until the exact moment they went there, not until.[

The people investigating the Final Days were lacking a significant amount of information as to its true nature. They did not know about Meteion because Venat never told them. They completely misdiagnosed the problem in their ignorance, although they were fortunate enough for Hermes and his contemporaries to wind up arriving at a workable, if temporary solution in the form of Zodiark. Through Zodiark they managed to treat the symptoms even if the cause remained unknown.

Or were you meaning people in the modern era trying to understand it? If so, then that answer is a lot more simple. Setting aside how rare the Echo actually is, there's a limit on how far back you can look with it. Modern Echo-users, no matter how skilled, would never be able to look far enough back to glean even one iota of useful information about the Final Days.

"Playing games" with Emet-Selch, as you put it, was a key part of ensuring the timeline she sought would come to pass. It was only through the presence of the Ascians things could play out in a manner necessary for events to unfold as they'd been foretold. And for Venat "bringing others into the fold?" That does not necessarily mean she's told them the truth of it, particularly since we're told outright she never did. She recruited followers, yes, but none of them understood what was really happening.

So we are going in circles because originally you implied that due to time linearity it is impossible for Emet to view our past, when that isn't true because as you are now acknowledging the events actually happened (it was just Azem not us) meaning Emet and all his contemporaries had myriad observers, artifacts, the Aether itself to call upon to determine Hermes misdeeds but whoops-- it doesn't work bc why?

As far as Venat didn't tell anyone... Assuming that is literal and true she still gives a motivation for that ie Hermes himself is the issue and WoL has told her the panic fuels the final days.

So what we have learned from this conversation is that "lol ancients casually viewed the past" is categorically false which is exactly what I was saying. As you are now saying it can't be used to solve all problems, everything hinges on Venat.

And regarding hinging on Venat I don't see how "Meteion did it" changes anything. Isn't the reason Hermes was sending Her because they couldn't do space travel? Venat was tracking Meteion but that doesn't mean she had direct access. And again how does enabling the villain make things better