Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[Delis]

This is straight up already happening. There's a reason people make spreadsheets to map out optimal use of healing cooldowns and stuff in Savage even though it's 100% not needed.

Yeah for a lot of us that stuff is FUN. I love breaking down a fight and working with my co tank on mapping out our cool downs and working with our healers and dps on who is going to be tossing up a party wide mitigation and when. After a raid night, I love breaking down the logs and looking through them to see where I can improve and helping any raid members that ask for help. Love after the next raid night and looking to see if I improved from the previous week. Love all of that stuff. For some of us we LOVE the number crunching side and it can be very social as you talk with your static and work on things like strats or improving our openers/rotations.

[Kira619]

Did he say that? Did he mean that?

Because you just went on a gigantic spiel to counter me... and yet the whole point remains.

All he said was that your opinions come from an inexperienced mindset. So naturally, once you don't have the facts, your point of view, no matter how valid it may appear to you, is tainted by misinformation and biases.

So rather than say "lol you're a noob you get no opinion", I took from what you quoted that he told you "Consider otherwise".

So please. Rather than getting butthurt that someone is pointing out "Yo, you might have it wrong here", please actually stop to consider that people are NOT OUT TO GET YOU.

1st. there are no "facts" when it comes to considering if an environment is toxic, because the idea of toxic isn't factually based. It's entirely based on the opinion of a person and their morals. This is largely why we're seeing two different viewpoints between what the majority of WoW like mindset finds toxic (such as toxic positivity), and what the majority of FFXIV like mindset find toxic (such as unsolicited advice.) So, every person's viewpoint on toxic here will be based on the biases and opinion of what matters to them.

2nd, Did I say that he was out to get me? Of course not. Asking someone to not invalidate me has nothing to do with them having a vendetta against me. I largely believed he may not have understood how his statement or the mindset you posted above is invalidating, because as indicated in my previous post, it clearly is. But I never indicated his statement meant he had a vendetta against me.

With that said, I can already tell that you find the mindset, which is invalidating, as acceptable due to idea that one is inexperienced. So, there's no further point in me discussing this with you. Take care.

[Yeol]

Parse isn’t what made WoW toxic, but the game design did. WoW is a competitive game. It has an esport scene. Real money and sponsors are involved in world first racing & arena PvP.

WoW is actually pretty chill if you play it casually (normal/heroic difficulties and even early mythic+ keys). People don’t waste their breath yelling/complaining at these levels of difficulty. It’s when you join the top levels of difficulty where people will start demanding more of you (As they should be).

Meanwhile in FFXIV people complain about other players in expert/daily roulettes

[Shurrikhan]

Again, X happening does not in any way indicate that we need more of X to happen. If anything it's an argument to remove the ability to parse logs.

You're asking to remove a form of meta-gaming that vastly increases the game's enjoyment and longevity for a decent portion of people... on the basis that some people who would already be punished for harassment might use it, instead of something else, to do the thing they'd already do and for which they would be identically punished?



Random example: One of the allegedly most painful ways to go is fluoride poisoning. Should we ban toothpaste because it might allow a different means of murder? Or... do you just punish murder? That example might be a novel means, but it's not a novel extent of danger; if anything, it tends to move things away from less precise means with potentially larger tolls.

Your case here might make sense if parsing were enlarging the extent of the danger, but it isn't. It simply replaces extremely rough guesswork and presumptions, typically things more lent towards toxicity... with something more concrete.

It doesn't increase the number of times a party would come into conflict over too little dps to clear or the like; that's paced only by wipes, causes known or merely suspected.

[FireMage]

Mean I will disagree with people stating how dps meters are as toxic people say they are, its just people who know they are bad dont want to get asked to put more effort in.

but the way FF14 playerbase likes to say it is yet ignores every other harassment which is worse then dps meters is just confounded esp when the argument they use is wow is more toxic

We have a winner

[RobynDaBank]

Mean I will disagree with people stating how dps meters are as toxic people say they are, its just people who know they are bad dont want to get asked to put more effort in.

but the way FF14 playerbase likes to say it is yet ignores every other harassment which is worse then dps meters is just confounded esp when the argument they use is wow is more toxic

I thought the FFXIV playerbase was a blizzard of snowflakes who strike back at the smallest deal...

[Midareyukki]

1st. there are no "facts" when it comes to considering if an environment is toxic, because the idea of toxic isn't factually based. It's entirely based on the opinion of a person and their morals. This is largely why we're seeing two different viewpoints between what the majority of WoW like mindset finds toxic (such as toxic positivity), and what the majority of FFXIV like mindset find toxic (such as unsolicited advice.) So, every person's viewpoint on toxic here will be based on the biases and opinion of what matters to them.

2nd, Did I say that he was out to get me? Of course not. Asking someone to not invalidate me has nothing to do with them having a vendetta against me. I largely believed he may not have understood how his statement or the mindset you posted above is invalidating, because as indicated in my previous post, it clearly is. But I never indicated his statement meant he had a vendetta against me.

With that said, I can already tell that you find the mindset, which is invalidating, as acceptable due to idea that one is inexperienced. So, there's no further point in me discussing this with you. Take care.

If you're going to be that aggressive, then I concur.

Arguing with you is about as productive as arguing with an actual physical dagger.

No, I am misled.

A dagger at least has a use. You, on the other hand, are dull.

(I hope you at least come to understand the difference between saying you're wrong and should consider other points of view, and people actively attacking you. I don't think you do at this point, probably a byproduct of being so inexperienced.)

[FireMage]

Im sure they would be willing.....problem is the consequences of what they are about to do would be very obvious. Screaming epithets and obscenities at someone in public usually has a less than desirable outcome.

Ill sum this up best way I can: my basic opposition to the idea of a dps meter is the fact it, as has been said, becomes an enabling mechanic for the kind of conduct we do not want to see replicated in FF 14.

Respect is earned, not bestowed. It isnt given out like lollies either. The concept of 'disrespect" goes both ways, as has been pointed out, you do x dps they scream and say they want you to do y they now want z and on and on and on until what we wind up with is a self defeating digital appendage waving contest.

This



is the key element that has been overlooked. When you turn a game into a series of number crunching spreadsheets and an obsession with "optimal", social elements are discarded in their entirety.

A game should be a place where you log off relaxed, happy, having had an enjoyable experience...not even more wound up and stressed than when you sat down.

See and here's the issue with this last part, anyone impeding someone's play by being garbage is factually in the wrong

[Shurrikhan]

Parse isn’t what made WoW toxic, but the game design did. WoW is a competitive game. It has an esport scene. Real money and sponsors are involved in world first racing & arena PvP.

WoW is actually pretty chill if you play it casually (normal/heroic difficulties and even early mythic+ keys). People don’t waste their breath yelling/complaining at these levels of difficulty. It’s when you join the top levels of difficulty where people will start demanding more of you (As they should be).

Meanwhile in FFXIV people complain about other players in expert/daily roulettes

I'm not actually even convinced the competitive scene is what made WoW (arguably) toxic. Rather, it seems to have been the loss of the extraordinarily long leveling experience and the (at least until MoP era) steadily (if roughly) increasing content complexity across that experience.

While M+'s extremely fine difficult tiers definitely help, many look at the small differences in outcomes and think instead "if I just had more gear" or "if I was on a better spec!" instead of... coordinating movement, bursts, etc. A lot of those little points in optimization just aren't obvious until one is beaten over the head with both their both being necessary and there being few enough complicating factors around it that one can focus on a few means of improvement at a time. Or, as one might otherwise call it, the game itself does a poor job of teaching how to play the game. That gap is left to parsers and Icyveins/WoWhead to fill, which can be a bit... disjointing.

That... seems quite the close parallel, also, though, to what we get here.

How many people, unless they've played when positionals were more prevalent and there were dodgeable untelegraphed conal AoEs, still naturally stack at the same point 120 degrees from the tank so that the tank can smartly dodge with minimal disruption?

How many Physical Ranged, unless they were around for the likes of T13, still naturally preposition for their BLM to Aetherial Manipulation to them?

An equal amount of player conflict can be laid at the feet of XIV similarly not really cluing players into the potential optimizations available around them.

[george357]

well 80 padges of dumpster fire time to leave this mess.