Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[Effendi]

If you want a game all about optimization and performance and all the baggage that comes with it, wow is available for your enjoyment.

In general it may start with helping top tier raiders with the latest savage raid and etc, but soon enough you'll have people getting yelled in Sastasha normal for not being optimal enough.

We already have one cesspool of an MMO, don't really need another one.

[Zebraoracle]

If you want a game all about optimization and performance and all the baggage that comes with it, wow is available for your enjoyment.

In general it may start with helping top tier raiders with the latest savage raid and etc, but soon enough you'll have people getting yelled in Sastasha normal for not being optimal enough.

We already have one cesspool of an MMO, don't really need another one.

Once again, I didn't know the TOS would suddenly say harassment is fine if a parsing tool was added to the game. And also, high end raiding in 14 literally comes with having to try for optimization.

This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU

is a convincing argument against damage meters.

I'm not watching an hour+ long video, but WoW's toxicity isn't only because of parsing tools. There are a lot of other factors as well, including, and I think most importantly, a GM team that isn't as strict about "no harassment" as 14's. It's really silly to pin it solely on a parsing tool when so many things contribute to the state of the community.

Not a sound reason but I think it would just make the devs really hate their game. They just dont share the same mentality that some people here do about it, theyre too focused on the negative side and being antagonistic with some of these debates isnt really helping your case. Like just this topic alone I can already feel the ulcers of the dev team forming from having this question show up in the community time and time again.

If I'm being antagonistic, it's because I'm getting so exasperated of the same old excuses, that are purely hypothetical and doomsdaying and don't actually have much merit, being spouted throughout the thread.

I've said it multiple times already, I don't personally care if a parsing tool is added to the game, just... have a good argument behind your case for not including them. Using WoW as a boogieman is not a good excuse, nor is anecdotal evidence.

I think Yoshi's stance is a good one. He leans to his one side and tells the casuals, "Don't worry the bad program isn't official and we won't ever have one." Then he leans to his other side. "Lols, don't worry bros you can still download ACT. Just don't run your mouth about it or be a dick with it."

The side that just wants to play and dosent care if they are bad can play how they want. And those that like to improve, play to the best of their ability, can do that.

Just don't be surprised if you join up for current end game content that people expect you to know how to play your job, and that you are open and willing to improve. It's common courtesy to the other seven people. It only takes a quick Google search to find a guide for your job.

This is a good argument. Like this is undeniable, objective fact: YoshiP doesn't want them, by his own mouth. Case closed, we're likely never getting them.

[Ransu]

Once again, I didn't know the TOS would suddenly say harassment is fine if a parsing tool was added to the game.



I'm not watching an hour+ long video, but WoW's toxicity isn't only because of parsing tools. There are a lot of other factors as well, including, and I think most importantly, a GM team that isn't as strict about "no harassment" as 14's. It's really silly to pin it solely on a parsing tool when so many things contribute to the state of the community.

Yoshi has been pretty clear that its more than just harassment. He doesn't want to see ridiculous requirements in the PF like "you must have this dps number to join" especially for older content where you start to outgear it and expect people at the appropriate ilvl to match the dps of higher ilvls that completely out gear it. This was a common occurrence in other games.

The other side of things is he doesn't want to pointlessly add work onto the GM's. They have enough crap to deal with and the ticket system doesn't need to be overwhelmed by events directly caused by petty players like firemage and other like minded players.

[Zebraoracle]

Yoshi has been pretty clear that its more than just harassment. He doesn't want to see ridiculous requirements in the PF like "you must have this dps number to join" especially for older content where you start to outgear it and expect people at the appropriate ilvl to match the dps of higher ilvls that completely out gear it. This was a common occurrence in other games.

The other side of things is he doesn't want to pointlessly add work onto the GM's. They have enough crap to deal with and the ticket system doesn't need to be overwhelmed by events directly caused by petty players like firemage and other like minded players.

People already have ridiculous PF requirements though. Stupid ilvl restrictions in non-parse focused groups, blocking certain jobs (MCH) from playing, demanding you have already cleared while the party leader hasn't actually cleared yet. The things y'all are saying will happen *already happen*. And bringing up other games isn't a great argument when other games don't have the strictness and rigidity of 14's TOS/GM team. Like, this is one of the most punish happy (for better or for worse) GM teams I've ever seen. There's a reason why the memes about people being silent in duties and people refusing to offer help exists.

You don't think it would be different if the major thing holding them back from raging at new players in game was removed?
We can move the goalposts all we want about "But harassment would still be against TOS" like somehow the TOS is some magical thing that prevents players from doing anything listed, but the fact is the major thing preventing that now is the hardline stance on bringing up numbers for another player in game is a ban. Without that hardline stance it would shift to become a debate about how polite you were when you told that sprout they were shit, and does it really constitute harassment. Fact is that having a hard stance on no plugins, no mods, and no parsers sidesteps a whole lot of internet debatelord arguments about whether harassment was intended or not and just stops it in its tracks. It works incredibly well, and if it's not broken there's no reason to fix it.

Did you miss the part of the TOS where you cannot tell others how to play? This is why people are so scared of offering tips in dungeons, you can literally be reported for offering advice (whether it actually gets punished or not is another story). Official parsers being added isn't going to suddenly make it so some random person can go off on you in a duty. If you call someone shit, it's very clearly breaking the TOS.

Like yeah, people can break the TOS, they already do, and they are wildly not the norm. But those people get punished and, hopefully, removed from the game.

Side note, if anything, it'd be hilarious to have a parsing tool added specifically to weed the toxic people out of the game.

You and Ivtrix.

*gigglesnort*

[Saraide]

Did you miss the part of the TOS where you cannot tell others how to play? This is why people are so scared of offering tips in dungeons, you can literally be reported for offering advice (whether it actually gets punished or not is another story). Official parsers being added isn't going to suddenly make it so some random person can go off on you in a duty. If you call someone shit, it's very clearly breaking the TOS.

Like yeah, people can break the TOS, they already do, and they are wildly not the norm. But those people get punished and, hopefully, removed from the game.

Side note, if anything, it'd be hilarious to have a parsing tool added specifically to weed the toxic people out of the game.

It's so weird that all these people pretend like the TOS dont exist just because it doesnt suite their argument right now. Very strange.

[Midareyukki]

People already have ridiculous PF requirements though. Stupid ilvl restrictions in non-parse focused groups, blocking certain jobs (MCH) from playing, demanding you have already cleared while the party leader hasn't actually cleared yet. The things y'all are saying will happen *already happen*.

Something tells me we need to bring back Skip Soar or Disband again.

Or make PLD not block Magic anymore.

At least people had a reason to complain back then. Now you're being discriminated on the effort you signed up for but are failing to meet in raids, that'll be on you. And if you're in a dungeon and people give you a hard time, then see their response. Are they being helpful and kind to you? They're there to help.
Are they being jerks? Destroy them.

Did you miss the part

Considering these arguments keep being touted around every other month in threads like these, I find that the majority of the community misses so many parts about topics in general.

That or they deliberately choose to either
a) ignore that these things do happen elsewhere just to fit their view
b) acknowledge those things happen but somehow believe them to be inferior vs the problems caused by parsing
either way, it hasn't changed anything so far.

This reminds me of Nuclear Energy. Easily a decent enough alternative, with several solid positive factors, but just because of disasters like Fukushima and Chernobyl (one was a natural disaster on an outdated and poorly maintained plant, the other a lacklustre facility conducting a test with inexperienced members whose inexperience and political regime doubled down on the consequences), people grow paranoid about it and are actively against it. Nevermind the actual numbers, protocols implemented since, or the technology that's since evolved to be better equiped to handle it.
Or planes. Where because of how disastrous a plane malfunctioning is leads to people develop an anxious phobia over flying despite the actual rarity of those things happening.

Bad things will happen.
With any tool you use.
The real question is whether the positives outweigh the negatives.
And on the internet where you kinda should have some thick skin anyway? Any negative outcome is entirely on you to handle.

It's so weird that all these people pretend like the TOS dont exist just because it doesnt suite their argument right now. Very strange.

ironically those are the same ones pretending the ToS is gospel against the use of 3rd party tools, despite Square already pointing out it's a gray area for rather comprehensive reasons...

[Ransu]

People already have ridiculous PF requirements though. Stupid ilvl restrictions in non-parse focused groups, blocking certain jobs (MCH) from playing, demanding you have already cleared while the party leader hasn't actually cleared yet.

Yes, and its a problem caused in part by the existence of ACT and FFLOGS and in part by the devs including ilvl settings in PF.

[Tyjacon]

Yoshi has been pretty clear that its more than just harassment. He doesn't want to see ridiculous requirements in the PF like "you must have this dps number to join" especially for older content where you start to outgear it and expect people at the appropriate ilvl to match the dps of higher ilvls that completely out gear it. This was a common occurrence in other games.

The other side of things is he doesn't want to pointlessly add work onto the GM's. They have enough crap to deal with and the ticket system doesn't need to be overwhelmed by events directly caused by petty players like firemage and other like minded players.

And this is the exact reason why I think that Yoshi P has the right idea. The workload of the GM's trying to police the players, key point here, INTENTIONS vs. their actions are muddled enough currently.
Can you imagine how quickly some people come crying on the forums about how they were unfairly banned because "If Yoshi hadn't intended for us to be able to kick players who don't parse a certain percentage, he wouldn't have put them in the game"?

Players will exploit any loophole. Just look at all the players owning more than 1 house, single player FC's, or windows shortcut to skip unskippable cutscenes to illustrate my point.
Fight club rules apply for a reason.

[LaylaTsarra]

I'm not watching an hour+ long video, but WoW's toxicity isn't only because of parsing tools. There are a lot of other factors as well, including, and I think most importantly, a GM team that isn't as strict about "no harassment" as 14's. It's really silly to pin it solely on a parsing tool when so many things contribute to the state of the community.

Why? Afraid to see what WOW is all about and what it's become because of the number centric crowd. That video is a testamate to a game which sure doesn't look like fun and you wonder why so many people are leaving and have left.

You can keep pushing your number agenda but after all is said and done the DIRECTOR of this game doesn't want this for 14 and I can certainly see why after watching 2/3's of that video.

This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU

is a convincing argument against damage meters.

TY for posting that link.

[Zebraoracle]

Why? Afraid to see what WOW is all about and what it's become because of the number centric crowd. That video is a testamate to a game which sure doesn't look like fun and you wonder why so many people are leaving and have left.

You can keep pushing your number agenda but after all is said and done the DIRECTOR of this game doesn't want this for 14 and I can certainly see why after watching 2/3's of that video.



TY for posting that link.

I know exactly what WoW is like, I don't have to waste my time on an hour long video to see it, and I've probably played it a lot more than some people in this thread. Look at the rest of the post you replied to, I may have added stuff while you were replying. WoW's community is garbage, for a LOT of reasons and not specifically because of damage parsers. The design of the game itself really lends itself to it. Parsing tools are symptom, not a cause.

And lol, number agenda? Excuse me?