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  1. #91
    Player Deveryn's Avatar
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    Aug 2020
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    Character
    Deveryn Ev'liarsh
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    copy / pasta of wow complaints
    The same thing happens with wow and other MMOs. Those of us not racing to be first in a race that doesn't matter are content with the content output.

    (see my previous posts here for more responses to this )

    There are only so many ways to say this is how things have been with MMOs and that they're not likely to change. Those of us who have played them long enough know and accept this. This is not justification for bad design. This is acknowledgment of the limits that exist in content production.
    (3)
    Last edited by Deveryn; 12-09-2022 at 07:53 AM.

  2. #92
    Player
    DPZ2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    2,602
    Character
    Dal S'ta
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 97
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    Except it has virtually zero rewards. In other words, it's completely dead content for a majority of the playerbase while the raiders who would be interested only run it for a short while before abandoning it completely. The actual Savage version is even worse. Nearly everyone I know who completed has zero intention of ever going back because the rewards are non-existent.
    And there we have it. The real reason that no one does content that was created to provide more of a challenge to players who are self-described as midcore: "It doesn't pay enough to be worth my time."
    (1)

  3. #93
    Player
    Gember's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Limsa
    Posts
    213
    Character
    Snow Fox
    World
    Zurvan
    Main Class
    Fisher Lv 58
    I am on break from my main. I occasionally hop on my alt to play. (Its still in the middle of Stormblood) What helped me play this game moderately is the Squadron system. Its kind of an outdated system now days due to the trust system, but there are some big level gaps between the trust dungeons. I use Squadrons to fill in for the lower levels. What I am trying to get at, is that I can only train my squadrons 3 times a day, and therefore that equals to 3 hours of gameplay. Once I am done with the 3rd training session, I run a dungeon with them, send them on a 18 hour mission, and then I log off. In between those 3 hours I just do whatever I feel like doing. Stand around, queue for dungeons, or do a little bit of MSQ. Alts are nice because there is no FOMO. I already have a main that is caught up and did everything.

    I always got a itch to play sometimes, but if I do too much; I sure do feel the burnout no matter what character I play. I try to just limit my game time, and I don't play everyday. What burned me out the most in this game was raiding. I promised myself to not do the next tier unless it has really good glams. I didn't like Abyssos's gear as a healer, but did enjoy the lunar gear. I suffered through savage to get a dyeable set. When they release the new Alliance raid in January 2023; I will be farming more dyeable lunar gear for my alt jobs. No need to bash my head against savage fights and get worn out.
    (1)
    Last edited by Gember; 12-09-2022 at 08:28 AM. Reason: i'm terrible with grammar

  4. #94
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,638
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Deveryn View Post
    The same thing happens with wow and other MMOs. Those of us not racing to be first in a race that doesn't matter are content with the content output.
    Who said anything about a race? The MSQ is two hours; Tataru's Adventure an hour; Aglaia an hour; Elephant Beast Tribes 30 minutes daily, and etc.

    This excuse gets really odd. People aren't rushing to complete content so long as the content itself has no longevity. The MSQ doesn't magically get longer because you take two months to complete it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DPZ2 View Post
    And there we have it. The real reason that no one does content that was created to provide more of a challenge to players who are self-described as midcore: "It doesn't pay enough to be worth my time."
    Yes? Why does that come as a surprise? People typically want rewards for long investments of their time. Savage gives rewards. Why shouldn't Criterion? Furthermore, I did mention people who have already completed the content saying they have no desire to go back. They did the challenge for challenge sake. There's literally nothing left for them to do because there's nothing to farm.

    You act like this some shocking revelation. Pick any game, be it a MMO, FPS, RTS, Single Player or Multiplayer. If it doesn't have a reward structure most players won't touch it regardless of the difficulty. Expecting players to do Savage level content for a title is... well, silly. Some will do it once, get said title and have zero reason to go back. Most won't even see the point. Especially when said content is a literally the exact same thing as Normal but you can't raise and damage numbers went up.
    (13)
    Last edited by ForteNightshade; 12-09-2022 at 09:27 AM.
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  5. #95
    Player Deveryn's Avatar
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    Aug 2020
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    2,724
    Character
    Deveryn Ev'liarsh
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    Who said anything about a race? The MSQ is two hours; Tataru's Adventure an hour; Aglaia an hour; Elephant Beast Tribes 30 minutes daily, and etc.

    This excuse gets really odd. People aren't rushing to complete content so long as the content itself has no longevity. The MSQ doesn't magically get longer because you take two months to complete it.
    You're the one overanalyzing (maybe half of) everything and breaking it down into blocks of time. To me that sounds like deadlines and racing. It's only natural that you have less/no fun. You've already got your sights set on the end. You miss all the fun to be had in the game (and probably in life if that's your mindset).

    The only time I'm concerned about is when I have to log off for something. The content has as much longevity as you allow for it. Of course, there's no magic. You just sit back, relax and enjoy. I helped a friend do variant one day. We stopped in between and chatted and took some breaks. I couldn't tell you how much time we spent... just that it was after noon, then it was dark out. That is how you play the game and have fun.
    (3)

  6. #96
    Player
    Raven2014's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,636
    Character
    Ribald Hagane
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    Who said anything about a race? The MSQ is two hours; Tataru's Adventure an hour; Aglaia an hour; Elephant Beast Tribes 30 minutes daily, and etc.

    This excuse gets really odd. People aren't rushing to complete content so long as the content itself has no longevity. The MSQ doesn't magically get longer because you take two months to complete it.

    And ... not sure what any of this mean?

    I think I asked this before but ... for the people complain about the content volume of FF14, I would like them to cite some counter examples of MMO that have a bigger volume because AFAIK, there are none. Like ... if you claim FF14 is bad, what exactly is the point of reference here? Whether you think the MSQ itself is good or bad, FF14 already give a decent offering both in term of quantity and quality if not outright the best among MMO. Maybe that's still not enough for you and that's fine, but you gonna have to find some other medium to scratch that itch.

    Like, of course as a worker I always want to be get paid more, and I also understand why one would never think he or she get paid enough. But if I gonna make an argument to my boss to raise my salary, I gonna have to cite some counter examples like "another company is paying someone doing the same job a lot more". If I go in front of my boss knowing I already got the highest pay in the industry, but I still want get a raise anyway because in my head it's not enough ... I don't think that gonna fly ... do you?




    Also, Volume of content and time spent to go through those contents are not black and white metric. I can't remember in the last 10 years there have been a game that had taken me more than 2 weeks to "complete", including load of JRPG that considered to be supper long with average clear time between 60h to 100h. But for most of them, once I finish I never go back. At the same time, I also played lots of sandbox games that if you measure the volume, they have significant less content. However since I kept coming back and play them, the total play time can rack up to like hundred and sometime even thousands of hours. In both cases I'm left quite satisfied. And FF14 (or any MMO for that matter) probably lean onto the 2nd camp more.

    - If you come to an MMO wanting the content volume depth of a single SP, you will be disappointed.
    - If you come to an MMO and think repetition isn't worth your time, then you're playing the wrong medium.

    Nobody is trying to give you any excuse here. But if you gonna eat an orange but prefer an apple, then do know even the best orange in the world still won't turn into an apple.
    (3)
    Last edited by Raven2014; 12-09-2022 at 10:00 AM.

  7. #97
    Player
    caffe_macchiato's Avatar
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    Aug 2021
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    712
    Character
    Macchi Ato
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 93
    Quote Originally Posted by Deveryn View Post
    There are only so many ways to say this is how things have been with MMOs and that they're not likely to change. Those of us who have played them long enough know and accept this.
    I just wish there was a way for the human race to implement a solution to a 20-year old problem. Sadly, our species isn't smart enough to do that, is it? It's just inevitable?

    Oh wait, WoW solved it. As did Guild Wars. And almost every other online game. We're alone in our relative lack of content for $13 a month. And those who say otherwise are still chewing on the single-player story mode as though that should be the meat and potatoes of a multiplayer online game.

    Having played the classics many years ago, without seeing how they evolved, doesn't make you an expert. They evolved, we didn't. We're still using "the formula", a design trap highlighted by Jeff Kaplan 20 years ago and fixed soon thereafter.

    The good news: we don't have to fix it. We will lose players and they will flock to some other game. And that's okay! This game doesn't matter, it's not worth investing that much time in, and ultimately, we all will be perfectly fine when the plug gets pulled.
    (4)

  8. #98
    Player
    LittleImp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    1,204
    Character
    Lil Imp
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Reward structures are necessary to help justify replaying content that has no innate replayability. This game charges a subscription, so it would probably make sense to incentivize replaying content.

    Other MMOs offer content with better replayability, so it's totally possible for SE to offer a similar experience.
    (14)

  9. #99
    Player
    Raven2014's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,636
    Character
    Ribald Hagane
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato View Post
    I just wish there was a way for the human race to implement a solution to a 20-year old problem. Sadly, our species isn't smart enough to do that, is it? It's just inevitable?

    Oh wait, WoW solved it. As did Guild Wars. And almost every other online game. We're alone in our relative lack of content for $13 a month. And those who say otherwise are still chewing on the single-player story mode as though that should be the meat and potatoes of a multiplayer online game.

    Having played the classics many years ago, without seeing how they evolved, doesn't make you an expert. They evolved, we didn't. We're still using "the formula", a design trap highlighted by Jeff Kaplan 20 years ago and fixed soon thereafter.

    The good news: we don't have to fix it. We will lose players and they will flock to some other game. And that's okay! This game doesn't matter, it's not worth investing that much time in, and ultimately, we all will be perfectly fine when the plug gets pulled.

    Idk. Let's say for the shake of argument, we will assume you are - in your infinite wisdom of the human specie old and new - is correct. But the way you frame and put forward your message ...

    Imagine you're someone who worked hard from the bottom up (1.0 disaster), but follow your own vision, your formula. After 10 years of hard working you finally hit your prime and become a top dog, surpass every competitors that were ahead of you. Imagine, at that moment, some random person come in front of you boldly declare that:

    - Everything you had done was wrong and uninspiring.
    - That instead of keeping to the vision that take you to where you are today, you should have copied the formula of all the people you had managed to surpass until now, because they were right all alone. Like ... I'm not even debating whether you are right or wrong. But if you were Yoshi-P, would you listen to yourself? I know I wouldn't, and I think one would have to be insane to do so.


    Also I don't know why people like to talk about the "inevitable". You know what, inevitable you will die. Inevitable our sun will die and so does the planet earth. Inevitable the universe itself will also end. Everything I said are absolutely correct, but does that make me correct and wise to say so?
    (2)
    Last edited by Raven2014; 12-09-2022 at 02:52 PM.

  10. #100
    Player
    Raven2014's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,636
    Character
    Ribald Hagane
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleImp View Post
    Reward structures are necessary to help justify replaying content that has no innate replayability. This game charges a subscription, so it would probably make sense to incentivize replaying content.

    Other MMOs offer content with better replayability, so it's totally possible for SE to offer a similar experience.
    Then name them, give me some example. I'm a gamer, I'm always on the market for something better, assuming they are exist. I had played most, if not all the noticeable MMO ever available on the market beside those Korean grindfest PaytoWin ones, and for me FF14 come out first at a distance. So I'm very confuse about "when people claim there are better games than FF14", it makes me wonder like is there some hidden gem out there that I'm missing. If that's the case then please enlighten me.

    For the record, I'm someone who:

    - Have 8 chars in WoW and used to do top 10 US raiding.
    - Have 10 chars in GW2, and did a US first clear of Fractal, and also had every legendary weapons.
    - Have 14 chars in SW:TOR, and went through every story. (I'm a Founder)
    - Have 8 chars in Tera, and cleared most of the dungeon and Raid.

    And between those, you can also sprinkle Wildstars, Elderscrolls, EVE, Genshin, Soul Blade, Black Desert, PSO2 .etc. And in my experience:

    - People complain about story, but FF14 is the top, or near the top. Granted, the script may be not to everyone taste, but the presentation and volume is hard to match. SW:TOR is probably the only challenger in this aspect, but the reason it failed because it was a (legendary) SP game with a MMO skin.
    - People complain about gearing, FF14 have the most casual prep among them.
    - People complain about reward and loot, FF14 have the most friendly loot system bar none.

    Like ... seriously, as someone who played since 2.0, the reward and ease of access to ... literally about anything, be it crafting, leveling, materia, gears drop, books, tokens have become magnitude more generous, and it get more generous every single expack. You know, it hasn't happened yet, but I wouldn't suprise the 450 tome cap gonna be increased in 7.0. That's like literally the last thing they still hold out for, and there is like nothing else they can make the system more generous barring giving everyone stuff for free.

    So ... what are these games that you claim even more generous than FF14. Because I would love to try it out.
    (4)
    Last edited by Raven2014; 12-09-2022 at 02:50 PM.

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