Why is everyone anxious about a PLD Rework?

[AnotherPerson]

I’d like to know people’s opinions on this since I’m noticing a lot of anxiety over changing their rotation* mid-expansion. These have happened before with other jobs, namely those that have inherent job issues that haven’t been brought up until new systems and changes in the expac are already in place.

You know, I'm actually quite afraid of a PLD rework only during this period of time only due to their job design choices as of late. Healer forums are going up in flames from simplicity of pressing 2 damage skills over and over again, from normal content to high-end content due to downtime, but the developers have yet to change things. It can then be inferred that the developers think this job design philosophy is the right thing to do because they don't believe the playerbase is good enough to handle any complexity. No one still wants to play healers because the role itself is boring when there's such a significant amount of downtime in every type of content (normal to high-end). Rather than just giving healer damage skills back for 2 expansions now (4 years), they still tried to convince people to play not play tank/dps and play healers instead without making any changes to the number of damage skill variety. SAM losing Kaiten is also a big sign of reducing complexity -- they didn't merge Shoha with Shoha II when they mentioned button bloat, but instead directly removed Kaiten and turning the Samurai gauge into purely a Shinten gauge. No one even expected Kaiten to be removed. I haven't even seen complaints about Samurai until Kaiten got removed. If healers and DPS were targeted with these changes, why wouldn't tanks be next on the list? The rework would suddenly be a good opportunity for them to "try it out".

So what if the the PLD rework in 6.3 was to give a similar healer gameplay experience to tanks by reducing the complexity immensely? What if they will remove every damage skill but 1 single target, 1 aoe, and 1 ranged attack? There would be no issues with aggro generation because they can just triple the aggro generation on their main skills and have the combos just be an upgraded trait like healers main attack skill.

Lately, SE has been removing DoTs from the game in general. Healers lost a lot of DoTs/AoE DoTs until it became the standard 1 DoT per healer. SMN no longer have DoTs. Goring Blade is a DoT. Circle of Scorn is a DoT. Whose to say one of these skills won't go next?

Then, because blocking cannot compete with mitigation under bleeds and critical hit, PLD just gets a bunch of new mitigation skills to replace their damage skills. Because it's a starter class and because there have been complaints that their rotation drifts (atonement), it could also receive the White Mage treatment of being simple to play by losing their rotation entirely.

To fit in-line with the 2 min burst meta, PLD could just get 1 additional skill to use every 120 seconds - which will be their "super burst phase" (Confeitor-> Blade of Valor combo). So instead of 2-1-1-1-1-1 like healers, tanks is 2-2-2-2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1. To reduce any issue of critical hit variance, the Confeitor combo will always critical hit. At best, they say "they heard the complaints of a 2 min burst meta" and changed the 1 additional skill's cooldown from 120 seconds to 60 seconds.

Because people say tank anxiety makes them play really badly, now that tanks don't have a DPS rotation, they can fully focus on mitigating correctly. And this kind of change is actually a possibility, because they removed healer DPS skills. For the vast majority of players who were playing healers before, they can DPS and heal simultaneously. The healer DPS skill changes wasn't targeted for them but for people who struggle to heal and DPS -- aka heal anxiety from having to worry about DPS buttons. So the PLD rework change could very well be made for tank anxiety.

I think this kind of change will be what I'm most afraid of from happening. It's a very lazy way of doing things, but it's something that works for balance, and all their decisions lately have been taking the easy way out for balance. There's a very low chance SE would do this because this is PLD we're talking about and tanks at least have very good precedent on changes, but the Kaiten change blindsided so many people that at this point, anything is possible. I sure hope I'm overthinking things.

[Mikey_R]

I'm not a big fan of Circle of Scorn and the blade final dot overwriting each other. It's never been something I've liked and I would want to see that changed. Maybe it would be shifted to that the final blade spell gives you a lengthy buff that increases the damage of your next Circle of Scorn by whatever amount?.

Blade of Valor doesn't overwrite Circle of Scorn, so I will assume you mean Goring Blade, which it does replace.

However, that is the whole point. Blade of F/T/V is a stronger Goring Blade combo. That is how everything lines up and that is the intent.

Not that it probably matters because who knows what it happening in 6.3.

[Gserpent]

You guys are coming up with all these ideas on how to fix the 63s loop and I think it's simple: WAR now has 3 Fell Cleave and BIG HIT (Primal Rend). DRK has 3 Bloodspiller. PLD has 4 Holy Spirit, and BIG HIT (Confiteor). See the difference? This is SE we're talking about, I fully expect their 'solution' to make the rotation line up properly is not to change Atonement in any way, instead just dropping two stacks from Req, buffing the potency of Holy Spirit again to make up for the one that is lost. Since it's 600p under Req, 1/4 of that damage would be cut, so 150. So they can just slap +50 on each of the Blade combo steps again and call it a day. Also I expect they'll be making Req grant 'Confiteor Ready' status and changing Confiteor from 'Requires Req' to 'Requires Confiteor Ready', to mirror Primal Rend's functionality, because they'll have internal data showing how many people over-use Holy Spirit and flub their chance to use Confiteor to finish the Req window.

As for Rithy's latest comment about changing the Oath gauge to be a more offensive thing, it'd at least be 'interesting' cos holy heck it's bad now. They can change Sheltron/Intervention to '20s CD, Has 2 Charge shared between Sheltron and Intervention.' This makes it so you can back to back 2 Sheltrons still, or a Sheltron and an Intervention, or whatever. They should remove the gauge cost from Cover though, the reason it was busted good in SB wasn't the lack of gauge cost, it was the 20% damage mit trait it no longer enjoys

If they did add the charge stuff to Sheltron though I think it'd be potentially interesting to throw Clemency on the same charge counter so you can actually use it without feeling super bad about it (and so PLD has some self-heal option below HolySheltron levels). And you'd be able to choose what tool to use based on situation. If you're taking the hit, Sheltron, co-healer taking the hit, Intervention, but you can also Clemency after. Or in Double TB situations, maybe you Sheltron yourself, they do their CD stuff, then you Clemency THEM and get half of the heal too. Oh wait this sounds almost interesting so there's no chance

I'd just remove Cover at this point. I don't like the idea that a class might be paying some kind of "tax" on an ability that largely never sees use. I don't even put it on my bars because it's basically useless. For Clemency, you could just make it an instant cast oGCD Ability with charges and a cooldown - baby Tetragrammaton, basically.

[Curisu]

I'd just remove Cover at this point. I don't like the idea that a class might be paying some kind of "tax" on an ability that largely never sees use. I don't even put it on my bars because it's basically useless. For Clemency, you could just make it an instant cast oGCD Ability with charges and a cooldown - baby Tetragrammaton, basically.

Cover is a life saver and a great situational skill, just like clemency is.
Removing them just takes away a unique and situational skill.
And no, having Clemency on a oGCD with one charge does not help.
I want to spam that heal to save a run, I don't care about my dmg and rotation when I can save a run and clear.
Clemency made my groups first p4s clear possible, cover saved multiple runs in e12s by putting it in a healer.

They can be extremely strong and make things possible that no other tank can do, but they are situational and not used under normal circumstances.
And this is a big part I like about PLD.

[Gserpent]

Cover has almost no applications in meaningful content, and neither does spamming Clemency. At the absolute best, it lets the PLD drag themselves a tiny bit farther to see the next mechanic, but that comes at the cost of PLD having low DPS and arguably the lowest personal sustain of any tank, so it's kind of pointless - just take a WAR and let them Holmgang and Equilibrium or whatever to see the same stuff.

Clemency and Cover remain effectively useless buttons in *meaningful* content, which means they need to be reworked or removed. No one cares about performance in casual content, because as long as you have a pulse you will clear that content guaranteed.

[Mithron]

Cover has almost no applications in meaningful content, and neither does spamming Clemency. At the absolute best, it lets the PLD drag themselves a tiny bit farther to see the next mechanic, but that comes at the cost of PLD having low DPS and arguably the lowest personal sustain of any tank, so it's kind of pointless - just take a WAR and let them Holmgang and Equilibrium or whatever to see the same stuff.

Clemency and Cover remain effectively useless buttons in *meaningful* content, which means they need to be reworked or removed. No one cares about performance in casual content, because as long as you have a pulse you will clear that content guaranteed.

To be fair, Clemancy does see very good use in Ultimates. It's just so niche and not optimal given the nature of 14's design regardless because it's a strict DPS loss outside down time, and even down time it could still be DPS loss given MP cost. I would much rather it cost 50 Oath gauge and be an OGCD.

[Espon]

Cover has almost no applications in meaningful content, and neither does spamming Clemency. At the absolute best, it lets the PLD drag themselves a tiny bit farther to see the next mechanic, but that comes at the cost of PLD having low DPS and arguably the lowest personal sustain of any tank, so it's kind of pointless - just take a WAR and let them Holmgang and Equilibrium or whatever to see the same stuff.

Clemency and Cover remain effectively useless buttons in *meaningful* content, which means they need to be reworked or removed. No one cares about performance in casual content, because as long as you have a pulse you will clear that content guaranteed.

Not everything has to be a meaningful DPS button. It's why every class is losing its identity and becoming the same as every other. Clemency is one of the main draws for me to paladin. If they're going to turn Clemency into another Equilibrium and remove Cover then I might as well just play Warrior because there's nothing special Paladin now brings.

I don't care that it costs a GCD if means I can use it to save someone or myself when a run is going bad, because (and I know this might be hard to believe for most of you out there) not every boss attempt or dungeon run goes perfectly 100% of the time. People make mistakes, and it's nice to have something to fall back on.

Paladin has its fair share of problems, but changing the class so it plays exactly like the other 3 tanks is not the solution.

[Gserpent]

To be fair, Clemancy does see very good use in Ultimates. It's just so niche and not optimal given the nature of 14's design regardless because it's a strict DPS loss outside down time, and even down time it could still be DPS loss given MP cost. I would much rather it cost 50 Oath gauge and be an OGCD.

That would be perfectly fine with me, too - Sheltron is an independent 20 or 25 sec cooldown, Cover removed/no longer costs gauge, gauge is now used exclusively for either Clemency or Intervention, and both are instant oGCD skills. Move Clemency down the ability tree so that you get it early (seriously, like as early as 40ish) perhaps in a nerfed version, trait it to the stronger current version later, and I think you've got a stew going. Gives PLD some of that class identity at earlier levels, and when having that spot healing might actually be valuable. It also helps close the extreme tank durability gap they created by giving WAR nascent flash for Alexander raids (not that it *matters*, but I like consistency in design principles.)

Not everything has to be a meaningful DPS button. It's why every class is losing its identity and becoming the same as every other. Clemency is one of the main draws for me to paladin. If they're going to turn Clemency into another Equilibrium and remove Cover then I might as well just play Warrior because there's nothing special Paladin now brings.

I don't care that it costs a GCD if means I can use it to save someone or myself when a run is going bad, because (and I know this might be hard to believe for most of you out there) not every boss attempt or dungeon run goes perfectly 100% of the time. People make mistakes, and it's nice to have something to fall back on.

Paladin has its fair share of problems, but changing the class so it plays exactly like the other 3 tanks is not the solution.

That's what is going to happen, though, and acting like it will be otherwise is just copium.

And, yes, everything must be a meaningful DPS button - because DPS is literally the only thing in the game. Mitigation and healing are pretty much solved and are used automatically. It's very rare that healers need to actually GCD heal outside of week 1 prog/current ultimates, and tanks have absolutely zero control over the damage they take since there's no actual active mitigation taking place - it's just "I see spell cast, I hit button," basically.

You need to understand, if Clemency was so powerful that using it despite it being a DPS loss was actually a viable strategy, it would be *overpowered* and subject to being nerfed. All skills of that sort on tanks, the ability to heal or otherwise protect a buddy, are on cooldowns (either from job gauge costs or just cooldowns.) Clemency kind of is and kind of isn't due to operating off of MP, a stat that PLD otherwise basically does not use (you will always have mana for your spell cycle because PLD generates a massive amount of mana compared to how much it spends and the way the rotation works out.)

So the solution, instead, is to homogenize Clemency. Make it just like the other skills tanks have, an in exchange, it becomes a button *you can actually justify using as part of normal gameplay, in content that actually matters.* That's a huge improvement.

If you're worried about homogenization... buddy, where have you *been* for the past few years? "5.0 design" is all *about* homogenizing things, and Yoshida was very clear that they would be continuing to design the game along those lines. If you want unique classes with different gimmicks, you need to play a different game.

[Curisu]

Not everything has to be a meaningful DPS button. It's why every class is losing its identity and becoming the same as every other. Clemency is one of the main draws for me to paladin. If they're going to turn Clemency into another Equilibrium and remove Cover then I might as well just play Warrior because there's nothing special Paladin now brings.

I don't care that it costs a GCD if means I can use it to save someone or myself when a run is going bad, because (and I know this might be hard to believe for most of you out there) not every boss attempt or dungeon run goes perfectly 100% of the time. People make mistakes, and it's nice to have something to fall back on.

Paladin has its fair share of problems, but changing the class so it plays exactly like the other 3 tanks is not the solution.

100% agree to this.
Especially with these forced downtime mechanic's in savage.
Someone got hit by something not fatal but the healer are on the other side of the arena, clemency and nothing happened.
Someone dodged a healer have more important things to do then to look on others HP, Clemency.

Not everything needs to be a useful dmg GCD, verity and situational save's is one part what makes PLD fun to play.

[VentVanitas]

If you're worried about homogenization... buddy, where have you *been* for the past few years? "5.0 design" is all *about* homogenizing things, and Yoshida was very clear that they would be continuing to design the game along those lines. If you want unique classes with different gimmicks, you need to play a different game.

What kinda backwards defeatist logic is this?