A game for 4 year olds

[Kozh]

I can't see the advantage for a now freed state to allow the Garleans to exert the same level of control as before.... It is no longer the story of the Warrior of Light at that point. It will be hidden off screen, as was Ala Mhigo for the most part.

First, I never said that I want them to have the same level of control as before, in fact I said that the provinces are free to have their condition for joining the Empire.

Second, why would you want things to happen off-screen? I certainly hate how ala mhigo development was off-screen, I don't want that to happen to Garlemald too.

Also, I should point out: a lot of the people who tend to be fairly pro-imperialism or the like are usually picturing themselves as the empire in the equation, rather than the conquered.

I don't know about others, but personally for me, I actually pictures it from the provinces side. Also, wanting imperialism in game =/= wanting the same thing to happen in real life.

Kozh is basically just doing the thing Varis did in that one roundtable scene, of attacking the Alliance for the sole purpose of shallow point-scoring and trying to pull attention away from the fact he wants something worse.

Funny because from my pov you’re the one who’s doing this shallow point-scoring by creating strawman out of my discussion with Mikko. And please tell me where I said I want something “worse”? Because I clearly said that the provinces are free to join the Empire or not.

I'm curious what he thinks about Bozja, though, which is the closest thing the game will ever get to what he wants: an admission that life under Gabranth (it should be noted not the Empire itself, just Gabranth who took a more egalitarian approach) was better for some citizens and they should probably borrow those policies, while still striving to be a self-governing independent nation.

Actually I like Bozja story! Sure it ended in cliffhanger, and too short, but I suppose that’s the consequences of being relic story. Bajsaljen is probably one of my favorite character, and he’s a good/competent leader. Our nation is still fairly young compared to other countries, hence why story of our struggle for independence used to make me sentimental back when I’m young. Especially when I listen it from my grandparents who lived through that. Perhaps that’s also why even though many trashed Stormblood (which is actually fair since its writing isn’t as good), personally it’s nearly on par with ShB to me. Because I understand what Ala mhigan and Doman went through.

HOWEVER, I also relate *a lot* with the misija, more than I did with ala mhigan/doman/bozjan. After all, it wasn’t our colonizer who oppress us, but our fellow countrymen. Who denied us our culture, forbade us to speak our language, we couldn’t even use our name and had to change it to be more ““native””; simply because we’re minority. It happened for decades, with one of the worst period happen during my childhood. So yeah, you could say that it left lasting impression.

Is this the reason why I want some provinces to re-join the Empire? Perhaps, perhaps not, I’m not too sure tbh. Maybe it influence me a bit, but mostly I just want to see something more interesting than what we got.

[Cleretic]

Funny because from my pov you’re the one who’s doing this shallow point-scoring by creating strawman out of my discussion with Mikko. And please tell me where I said I want something “worse”? Because I clearly said that the provinces are free to join the Empire or not.

Literally in the post Mikko was quoting above the one you quoted, where you crack out entirely non-sequitir attacks against Gridania for no purpose other than to go 'see they're bad too, this is why we should get my extremely specific ideal imperialism'.

And speaking personally? I actually liked that we only turned up to Garlemald after it got wrecked. There's nothing that visiting a still-strong Garlemald would've brought to the table that the game is especially well-equipped to handle; going to the enemy city would open up great angles for subterfuge and stealth, but we actually know the game's not good at that because of Garlemald itself; the Thancred quest, In from the Cold, and the tailing quests were probably the worst-received parts of Endwalker as a whole (although personally, I thought In from the Cold was quite good). And the nature of zones means that there can't be a drastic change across a whole zone, so if we did get that hypothetical Stealth Mission Garlemald then either it'd remain a stealth zone in the entire game, or that the intact streets of Garlemald would need evergreen enemy spawns. And if you don't lean in that direction and just stuck to what the game's already known to be good at? Well, then a focus on a still-standing Garlemald is just Cold Stormblood. And we've already got both Stormblood and winter zones, combining them isn't new or interesting, I would just be bored; even Bozja was already repeating a lot of the notes of Stormblood, and even if I think Bozja did it better that 'I've heard this song before' factor was a negative.

But blowing the capital to smithereens before we get there, filling the streets not just with rubble, but with rogue magitek and tempered soldiers? Not only does that fix the zone continuity issue, it provides new and interesting areas we'd never seen before (I remember damn near the first thing about Endwalker I saw and actually liked was noticing that Garlemald seemed to be based on pictures of the Battle of Stalingrad). And that newness also spread to the Garleans themselves, because for once, we see them on the back foot. This provides a vulnerability we'd never seen, how they handle when they're not the ones with the gun to someone's head. And just as interesting as what changes in that scenario--them genuinely fearing the retribution they assume we're bringing--is what doesn't change, but comes in a whole new angle--their strong sense of national identity has gone from fueling a racially-supremacist imperialism to instead a death-grip on their independence far beyond what's reasonable or helpful.

I was in no way interested in going to Garlemald until I learned that Garlemald got blasted.

Garlemald's broader issue, like many empires introduced in the Final Fantasy franchise as a whole, was that it merely ended up being a front for something bigger. The instant that the latter part of Stormblood revealed that Varis was no more than a puppet dictator under Emet's thumb with no meaningful power of his own, Garlemald itself was devitalized of its story potential. What's the significance of going head to head against the Emperor in a climactic battle when we've already crushed the Ascians? He couldn't even be considered as a Mid-boss. Where is the mystique in exploring the modern city of Garlemald when Amaurot is even more modern in appearance?

There was no opportunity to make Garlemald more interesting without wrapping up the Amaurotines' involvement in the story, preferably for good.

And yeah, this is also genuinely a thing. Emet-Selch robbed the Garlean Empire of any agency, human depth or even stake in their own story, so any interest I may have once had in marching on their capital was completely sucked dry by that revelation in Stormblood's patches.

[kaynide]

First, I never said that I want them to have the same level of control as before, in fact I said that the provinces are free to have their condition for joining the Empire.

I don’t think this is unreasonable at all. Just being part of the Empire isn’t entirely bad, and some provinces might be down for it.

Monty Python Sketch (what did Roman’s ever do for us)

[DPZ2]

First, I never said that I want them to have the same level of control as before, in fact I said that the provinces are free to have their condition for joining the Empire.

And, as I stated above the part you quoted, "Empires are built on the backs of conquered nations." You are describing, instead, a loosely based confederation of states that just happens to agree that their previous Masters should still be in charge.

A lot of non-Garlean conscripts died in wars of conquest during the Garlean Empire's reign. A lot of non-Garlean citizens suffered for decades after their territory was conquered. We know how the Empire treated non-Garlean citizens. I doubt that those now-freed citizens would agree to the yoke once more simply because you think the New-and-Improved Empire would be benevolent.

Second, why would you want things to happen off-screen? I certainly hate how ala mhigo development was off-screen, I don't want that to happen to Garlemald too.

You quoted part of a thought. My full thought was "I can see no 'logical story' coming out of such a situtation -- only doom, disaster and despair for Garlemald and its peoples.

It is no longer the story of the Warrior of Light at that point. It will be hidden off screen, as was Ala Mhigo for the most part."