Sundering the Nibirun

[Iscah]

Just because they are meant to show us a possible outcome for the Ancients, does not mean that they are the same. We have no idea of their aether reserves and we do know that they are a hivemind, something the ancients were not.

Where does it say that they are a hivemind? I didn't get that impression from them.

[SannaR]

Where does it say that they are a hivemind? I didn't get that impression from them.

If you poke the one that shows up in Base Omnicron during the rank 7 rank up they congratulate the Omnicrons for also choosing to become a hivemind.

[Alleo]

Where does it say that they are a hivemind? I didn't get that impression from them.

They say it in their quest (at least in german) and as SannaR said they also mention it later by that one NPC. (Which makes it even worse that you can miss them)
My only thought was: Well another case that having a hivemind is quite bad.

According to Garlandtools this was the english version of the main quest: <whirr> Situational analysis complete. New customers are of the Nibirun civilization. This society eliminated concepts deemed unpleasant by organic life-forms, such as “war” and “death.” In so doing, individuals attained physical immortality and a state of unified comprehension.

And I believe that in german it was quite clear that they got "one mind" out of that.

[Anvaire]

It was, otherwise the story makes no sense.

I dont think the Sundering was required, It was one way of achieving the solution to face meteon. I.e they needed a creature capable of weilding a mix of dynamis and Aether. They needed the ancients to not keep sacrificing to acquire what was lost. There were more routes to that end, the Sundering was but one possible outcome, ironically in many ways the route Hydealyn chose resulted in more Sacrifice than the ancients because while the ancients sacrificed lives to save etheirys, Hydealyn sacrificed everything else. Culture, capability, civilisation.

Another thing to note is that both of her solutions depended on Zodiark to succeed and the backup plan in reality was doomed to fail (using the moon to flee)

So when looked at with this guise, Etheirys was only saved because of both Hydealyn and Zodiarks Actions, but there is a case to be made that regardless, Zodiark was alwways required. While Hydelyn's actions were not. (Assuming the Ancients figured everything out and turned away from the whole sacrificing more lives things, which Elidibus would probably have done given his role as mediator.)

[Cleretic]

I dont think the Sundering was required, It was one way of achieving the solution to face meteon. I.e they needed a creature capable of weilding a mix of dynamis and Aether. They needed the ancients to not keep sacrificing to acquire what was lost. There were more routes to that end, the Sundering was but one possible outcome, ironically in many ways the route Hydealyn chose resulted in more Sacrifice than the ancients because while the ancients sacrificed lives to save etheirys, Hydealyn sacrificed everything else. Culture, capability, civilisation.

I think a useful way to consider it is that the Sundering was the only conceivable solution for the people considering the problem at the time. If granted hypothetical true omniscience of everything going on and all possible events that would ensue in both the present and future, someone could plausibly come up with a better choice. But that's not what happened: instead, the task fell on a woman and whoever she could recruit that, while certainly smart and creative, and likely capable of considering a lot of the scenario around them, were humans (or whatever classifies as 'humans' in their scenario, which is admittedly not how 2022 Earth would consider the term) with human foibles and blind spots, doing their best with the information they have. In that context, yes, the Sundering was the best they could've possibly done, largely from the perspective of 'addresses all potential pain points'; granted, it feels like the group isn't thrilled about any part of the idea, they can tell that none of it is ideal. It's just that an ideal scenario is not available to them, and may not even exist on a theoretical level.

And the backup escape plan is... honestly, probably a bit more complicated than 'doomed to fail'. The primary intention of it was of course to get a few of the required pieces in play (namely, viable space travel and experts in such) while looking like the real plan, so already the definition of 'failure' here is kinda nebulous; the backup plan eventually succeeded in its real intention, which was not to be an actual backup plan. But if we approach it from the perspective of 'would the supposed plan to flee to another star have worked if they were required to try it'... well, there are theoretically habitable planets out there, and not all of them were facing a full End of Days as evidenced by Ultima Thule itself; Etheirys got the raw end because Meteion was aiming directly at it. So if they rode the moon to another habitable planet, they would've reasonably been able to live there for a while, it's just that 'a while' is not 'forever'. Eventually, something else would've killed 'em. But that's always gonna happen: nothing lasts forever, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't dodge the bullet you can see coming.

[Anvaire]

And the backup escape plan is... honestly, probably a bit more complicated than 'doomed to fail'. The primary intention of it was of course to get a few of the required pieces in play (namely, viable space travel and experts in such) while looking like the real plan, so already the definition of 'failure' here is kinda nebulous; the backup plan eventually succeeded in its real intention, which was not to be an actual backup plan. But if we approach it from the perspective of 'would the supposed plan to flee to another star have worked if they were required to try it'... well, there are theoretically habitable planets out there, and not all of them were facing a full End of Days as evidenced by Ultima Thule itself; Etheirys got the raw end because Meteion was aiming directly at it. So if they rode the moon to another habitable planet, they would've reasonably been able to live there for a while, it's just that 'a while' is not 'forever'. Eventually, something else would've killed 'em. But that's always gonna happen: nothing lasts forever, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't dodge the bullet you can see coming.

I stated it was doomed to fail because of what we know about dynamis. It was caused by high states of emotion (despair) that caused people to mutate into monsters. When you consider that those on the loppporits ship would have been leaving everything behind, without knowing where they were going. it would have taken but one of them to turn, which would have led to a chain reaction. Then we need to consider that Etheirys was still under the lingering influence of Zodiark, so take that ship with dozens of frightened, sad emotional people and then have them step directly into the focus of dynamis while trying to escape and I honestly think that it was doomed because inevitably one would turn leading to a chain reaction. Sure there was a slim chance of getting to a planet and thriving. But i think it was unlikely they would ever have made it that far.

I also dont think Ultima Thule can be classed as evidence of planets surviving as it in itself is a creation of dynamis. We dont know enough about the state of the universe to assume that life persists given the implication that meteon scoured the universe and destroyed them all, capturing their souls in that blue mass at the centre of Ultima Thule. Im sure there is a planet somewhere. But the sheer vastness of that journey to find it... honestly I just think the odds are stacked too much against them for the plan to succeed.

Thats without considering the Lopporits... ineptitude, though that could purposely be comic relief.

[AlenyaElizabelle]

...But that's not what happened: instead, the task fell on a woman and whoever she could recruit that, while certainly smart and creative, and likely capable of considering a lot of the scenario around them, were humans (or whatever classifies as 'humans' in their scenario, which is admittedly not how 2022 Earth would consider the term) with human foibles and blind spots, doing their best with the information they have. In that context, yes, the Sundering was the best they could've possibly done, largely from the perspective of 'addresses all potential pain points'; granted, it feels like the group isn't thrilled about any part of the idea, they can tell that none of it is ideal. It's just that an ideal scenario is not available to them, and may not even exist on a theoretical level..

It's like comparing the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Romans with people living in 2022. What they knew back then was the best for their time, and the things we knew now are still advancing and learning more.

[Cleretic]

It's like comparing the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Romans with people living in 2022. What they knew back then was the best for their time, and the things we knew now are still advancing and learning more.

Honestly, while you're mostly right it's not even that, because that implies the in-game present day had any better ideas to solve this, and they really didn't. They had the Loporrits (who aren't actually inept, they know their stuff, they're just also comedic), but they weren't actually providing new solutions, they'd basically just spent twelve thousand years working on the part of the problem Venat and company knew they'd eventually need but couldn't provide themselves.

Even as an outside audience we don't actually have any better ideas; basically anyone I've seen put one forward either ignores or twists explicit fact (sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentally), or just makes things up. We're aware that better ideas could theoretically exist, but that doesn't mean we have 'em either!

[KageTokage]

The present had the significant advantage of knowledge that was explicitly denied to the past (The cause of the Final Days).

It's anyone's guess how things could've played out had the Ancients known exactly what they were dealing with ASAP, but I feel a touch disinclined to think a proper solution was completely out of their grasp between the limitless potential of creation magicks and their unity as a people.

[CheshCa7]

Well Venat was an ancient. She knew them. She was also a former member of the convocation. She knew the convocation members. She was also the former Azem. You know, the ancient who probably saw the most of their world.
She considered they had no chance. This whole "She did not tell them, if she did they would have bla-bla" is just whishful thinking from ancient fans. They would have probably failed. If they would have even believed her.
And there's also Hermes, their best dynamis expert. What would he have done? Too many variables and just a stupid risky decision.