Sundering the Nibirun

[kaynide]

It was, otherwise the story makes no sense.

The sundering was only ever required because 1 idiot programmer ancient made 1 idiot mistake in his code design concept when making Meteion. She Blue Screen of Death’d freaked out when she got an answer she wasn’t programmed looking for and decided to crash the universe accelerate mass universal extinction.

[Anvaire]

It was, otherwise the story makes no sense.

I dont think the Sundering was required, It was one way of achieving the solution to face meteon. I.e they needed a creature capable of weilding a mix of dynamis and Aether. They needed the ancients to not keep sacrificing to acquire what was lost. There were more routes to that end, the Sundering was but one possible outcome, ironically in many ways the route Hydealyn chose resulted in more Sacrifice than the ancients because while the ancients sacrificed lives to save etheirys, Hydealyn sacrificed everything else. Culture, capability, civilisation.

Another thing to note is that both of her solutions depended on Zodiark to succeed and the backup plan in reality was doomed to fail (using the moon to flee)

So when looked at with this guise, Etheirys was only saved because of both Hydealyn and Zodiarks Actions, but there is a case to be made that regardless, Zodiark was alwways required. While Hydelyn's actions were not. (Assuming the Ancients figured everything out and turned away from the whole sacrificing more lives things, which Elidibus would probably have done given his role as mediator.)

[Cleretic]

I dont think the Sundering was required, It was one way of achieving the solution to face meteon. I.e they needed a creature capable of weilding a mix of dynamis and Aether. They needed the ancients to not keep sacrificing to acquire what was lost. There were more routes to that end, the Sundering was but one possible outcome, ironically in many ways the route Hydealyn chose resulted in more Sacrifice than the ancients because while the ancients sacrificed lives to save etheirys, Hydealyn sacrificed everything else. Culture, capability, civilisation.

I think a useful way to consider it is that the Sundering was the only conceivable solution for the people considering the problem at the time. If granted hypothetical true omniscience of everything going on and all possible events that would ensue in both the present and future, someone could plausibly come up with a better choice. But that's not what happened: instead, the task fell on a woman and whoever she could recruit that, while certainly smart and creative, and likely capable of considering a lot of the scenario around them, were humans (or whatever classifies as 'humans' in their scenario, which is admittedly not how 2022 Earth would consider the term) with human foibles and blind spots, doing their best with the information they have. In that context, yes, the Sundering was the best they could've possibly done, largely from the perspective of 'addresses all potential pain points'; granted, it feels like the group isn't thrilled about any part of the idea, they can tell that none of it is ideal. It's just that an ideal scenario is not available to them, and may not even exist on a theoretical level.

And the backup escape plan is... honestly, probably a bit more complicated than 'doomed to fail'. The primary intention of it was of course to get a few of the required pieces in play (namely, viable space travel and experts in such) while looking like the real plan, so already the definition of 'failure' here is kinda nebulous; the backup plan eventually succeeded in its real intention, which was not to be an actual backup plan. But if we approach it from the perspective of 'would the supposed plan to flee to another star have worked if they were required to try it'... well, there are theoretically habitable planets out there, and not all of them were facing a full End of Days as evidenced by Ultima Thule itself; Etheirys got the raw end because Meteion was aiming directly at it. So if they rode the moon to another habitable planet, they would've reasonably been able to live there for a while, it's just that 'a while' is not 'forever'. Eventually, something else would've killed 'em. But that's always gonna happen: nothing lasts forever, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't dodge the bullet you can see coming.

[Anvaire]

And the backup escape plan is... honestly, probably a bit more complicated than 'doomed to fail'. The primary intention of it was of course to get a few of the required pieces in play (namely, viable space travel and experts in such) while looking like the real plan, so already the definition of 'failure' here is kinda nebulous; the backup plan eventually succeeded in its real intention, which was not to be an actual backup plan. But if we approach it from the perspective of 'would the supposed plan to flee to another star have worked if they were required to try it'... well, there are theoretically habitable planets out there, and not all of them were facing a full End of Days as evidenced by Ultima Thule itself; Etheirys got the raw end because Meteion was aiming directly at it. So if they rode the moon to another habitable planet, they would've reasonably been able to live there for a while, it's just that 'a while' is not 'forever'. Eventually, something else would've killed 'em. But that's always gonna happen: nothing lasts forever, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't dodge the bullet you can see coming.

I stated it was doomed to fail because of what we know about dynamis. It was caused by high states of emotion (despair) that caused people to mutate into monsters. When you consider that those on the loppporits ship would have been leaving everything behind, without knowing where they were going. it would have taken but one of them to turn, which would have led to a chain reaction. Then we need to consider that Etheirys was still under the lingering influence of Zodiark, so take that ship with dozens of frightened, sad emotional people and then have them step directly into the focus of dynamis while trying to escape and I honestly think that it was doomed because inevitably one would turn leading to a chain reaction. Sure there was a slim chance of getting to a planet and thriving. But i think it was unlikely they would ever have made it that far.

I also dont think Ultima Thule can be classed as evidence of planets surviving as it in itself is a creation of dynamis. We dont know enough about the state of the universe to assume that life persists given the implication that meteon scoured the universe and destroyed them all, capturing their souls in that blue mass at the centre of Ultima Thule. Im sure there is a planet somewhere. But the sheer vastness of that journey to find it... honestly I just think the odds are stacked too much against them for the plan to succeed.

Thats without considering the Lopporits... ineptitude, though that could purposely be comic relief.

[AlenyaElizabelle]

...But that's not what happened: instead, the task fell on a woman and whoever she could recruit that, while certainly smart and creative, and likely capable of considering a lot of the scenario around them, were humans (or whatever classifies as 'humans' in their scenario, which is admittedly not how 2022 Earth would consider the term) with human foibles and blind spots, doing their best with the information they have. In that context, yes, the Sundering was the best they could've possibly done, largely from the perspective of 'addresses all potential pain points'; granted, it feels like the group isn't thrilled about any part of the idea, they can tell that none of it is ideal. It's just that an ideal scenario is not available to them, and may not even exist on a theoretical level..

It's like comparing the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Romans with people living in 2022. What they knew back then was the best for their time, and the things we knew now are still advancing and learning more.

[Lelila38]

It was, otherwise the story makes no sense.

Well, if you think about it logically, it does not make much sense.

[KageTokage]

I feel reluctant to consider the Nibirun as a parallel to the Ancients now that we know they only cared about perfection as a people and naught else.

It was stated that they might have met a similar end, though I find that exceedingly unlikely given that the Ancients were not reckless and deliberated over every decision they made for their people and the world at length.

[thegreatonemal]

I feel reluctant to consider the Nibirun as a parallel to the Ancients now that we know they only cared about perfection as a people and naught else.

It was stated that they might have met a similar end, though I find that exceedingly unlikely given that the Ancients were not reckless and deliberated over every decision they made for their people and the world at length.

Why? The ancients self stated purpose is simply to make the star better, what happens when they can do no more to make the star better? Their own culture encourages killing yourself once you feel you've done all you can for the star. There will come a time when the star is perfect. Then what?

[KageTokage]

It's suggested that the Ancients did not always follow the way of life they did, so the notion that they are wholly incapable of another such cultural shift if/when the time comes for it feels a bit...preposterous. The notion that living just for sake of enjoying life would be a totally foreign concept to them also feels awkward considering they did very obviously enjoy leisure activities in their free time.

The Nibirun by contrast destroyed everything that gave their lives joy and fulfillment by the time they achieved their perfection which led them to conclude life was now meaningless.

Perfection in general is also just a highly subjective, if not outright unattainable concept by nature, so what the Ancients would consider "perfect" may have never been realistically achievable with their methods.

[Lurina]

I don't want to speak too much for the OP, but I think fussing over the technical nature of the Sundering and beings made of aether vs. dynamis is kinda missing the point a bit.

What it comes down to is that the reconstructed races of Ultima Thule haven't fundamentally changed in their lived nature. The Nibirun (and the Ea, and sort of the Omicrons) are still presented as immortal, "transcendent" beings unbound by much of the strife of mundane living. However, the narrative of the Omicron questlines does not frame this as an impassable obstacle to them ultimately finding happiness and meaning.

In comparison, the narrative surrounding the Ancients treats their immortality and special powers as a "problem" that was ultimately precluding sustainable happiness and leading to their doom, and so had to be removed. This leads to an apparent contradiction that I think you can interpret in one of two ways:

1) The writers just aren't on the same page, and whoever wrote the Omicron questline has a fundamentally different philosophical opinion on how immortality and godlike power would transform the human condition and the capacity for individuals to find constructive meaning in their lives, versus whoever ultimately made the call on the Sundering plotline would be presented in the MSQ. Alternatively, they wrote themselves into a corner with the Ancients and it coming across that way in the first place was an accident, or maybe the writer for the Omicron quests just didn't care that deeply about Endwalker's specific themes and so contradicted them incidentally while writing their uplifting story about making some aliens happy.

2) We're not supposed to understand immortality and godlike power as inherently bad, but rather something that only caused circumstantial problems for the Ancients because of the way their culture had developed and specific events had played out. Thus, the Sundering was "not necessary" insofar as they had the potential (however unlikely you regard it as being reached) for cultural transformation that could solve the problem in lieu of physical transformation.