A game for 4 year olds

[Cleretic]

Then by all means why don't you grace us with a rewrite of your own? One that preferably avoids the terrible mishandling of grief, depression, and genocide in Endwalker.

That's completely unrelated, but okay. I'll admit I have a failing of taking the bait.

But here's the thing: I think the story is mostly fine, so I don't need to do a whole rewrite fanfiction to 'fix' it. Most of what I'd change are more editors' notes than full alterations. But sure, I'll toss them out. For the entire live game up to now, in fact.

A Realm Reborn: A tough one, since ARR has the difficult job of introducing a bunch of the world, but not really enough screentime to make any of it appealing, so there's not a lot of rewriting you can do without losing something important. I'd probably just have a whole editing pass to make sure we lose the weirdly out-of-place stuff that's more a relic of 1.0's tone (let's maybe not put down a slave uprising in Copperbell, and lose about 80% of the sexual assault references). And a special little idea of mine: include an 'Ala Mhigan's theme' for Raubahn, Ilberd, and some other relevant Ala Mhigan NPCs, that includes the Stormblood leitmotif.

Heavensward: Let's not kill Ysayle this time; she was killed for a bad reason, and would have interesting value to the story if she were still around for later parts of it. This has the side-benefit of making the Warring Triad storyline's attempt to sell Regula as a respectable person less terrible. Other than that, Heavensward's fine.

Stormblood: This one's really hard, because the main problem with Stormblood is baseline structural: it's essentially the exact same story told twice, once in Ala Mhigo and once in Othard. And yet, just removing either would cause enormous problems both in planning the future of the game (both Ala Mhigo and Othard introduce hugely important players) and in player appeal (people like both those places a lot). My best idea is basically to spice up the Ala Mhigan areas and make them more distinct from both each other and Yanxia. Let's use the existing Ala Mhigans and make each zone a reflection of where they grew up; have the Fringes be more religious to reflect Widargelt and the Rhalgr fanatics (since their holy sites are still around there), have the Peaks be where Raubahn's from and you can see both the principles and places that shaped him and perhaps the places where he feels he failed them (so maybe it's the most like Ul'dah, but you learn that's because Raubahn influenced Ul'dah rather than the other way around), and the Lochs is where Ilberd's from and it's still a simmering powder keg with regular outbreaks of violent resistance cells. That ARR change of introducing an Ala Mhigan theme also pays off here, as it's more immediately clear during the Imperial-occupied anthem that Garlemald co-opted the anthem rather than getting 'why is the Garlean theme playing everywhere' responses.

Shadowbringers: So I don't like Emet-Selch, which means he's the main thing I'd change here. But unlike Aveyond I actually respect other people's tastes and opinions, so while I could make more dramatic cuts to him, I don't really want to. Right now the angle I think I'd take is twofold:
A: Let's not have him be the founder of Garlemald. It cheapens Garlemald that their turn towards imperialism was from an external actor rather than entirely human choices, and it causes huge problems for Emet that the guy they're trying to paint as a tragic figure who had to make heavy, abstract but difficult choices also did extremely non-abstract terrible things that rightly shouldn't be lumped in with them.
B: A bit of a weird pitch, but: we're swapping the Warrior of Light and Hades. The WoL fight takes place down in Amaurot, and perhaps it's a mystery as to who actually built the place (Elidibus can deny it was him in the ending), meaning that Amaurot gets to make its pitch by itself rather than being tied so heavily to Emet. Emet still gets to throw down and go down in 5.3, where this time it's him that's the last Unsundered standing; he delays a bit before going even bigger on the angle of 'you failed to save the First by my reckoning, I'm gonna smash the First myself' that he does in the game anyway. In all honestly, this is mostly so that 5.0 ends in a more thematically consistent way than it currently does; it really bothers me that The Lightpocalypse Expansion ends in a completely incongruous figure of darkness, so let's give it the light-iest ending it can have.

Endwalker: I've thought about this, because I don't think Endwalker is perfect, but I think there are two ways to make it better. I've posted about them here before actually.
1. Lop off Elpis' start through to when Meteion freaks out; while I respect the direction of falling action, it completely obliterates the momentum the game has to go from Thavnair's apocalypse to 'land without problems full of pretty people'. Meteion freaking out means the place isn't entirely free of complications, but is still a drop in momentum, and still gives space to introduce all the relevant players, just in a more interesting context. It also means things are a little rushed, so people don't get the idea that we entirely influenced much of anything; we can still have scenes with Venat where she learns what's up, but things never really slow down enough for her to plausibly have more than a vague idea of who we are or why we're here. This frees up a bunch of space in the quest runtime, so let's instead give that to Garlemald to expand on that camp of indentured slaves off in the south that the MSQ sorta completely forgets about after introducing them. I used to think Ultima Thule could use the space too, but the Omicron questline does that just fine.
2. I don't have a problem with a lot of the things Labyrinthos' revisit does, but it doesn't do a lot with the space it's allocated, and while there is a ticking clock in the background, it's WAY in the background. We need essentially a 'Team Rocket' to raise the immediate stakes without raising the actual stakes. So I propose that the Illuminati break in to steal parts for their own spaceship/bunker, since they're exactly the type to already be working on that. Also, the Alexander questline is conspicuously near-absent in the 'celebrate everything you did' sequence.

Wait, what videos were these? I never saw a thread like that.

Also, the videos are over here! The last one I posted here was the one on NPC jobs (which I experimented with putting in General Discussion since it was less lore-ey). Since then I've done one on FFXIV's crossovers, a series on job lore (that's currently just the ones that started in FFI), and one on 'stuff we know about Allag that isn't the focus of any major stories'.

[Kazemon15]

Also, the videos are over here! The last one I posted here was the one on NPC jobs (which I experimented with putting in General Discussion since it was less lore-ey). Since then I've done one on FFXIV's crossovers, a series on job lore (that's currently just the ones that started in FFI), and one on 'stuff we know about Allag that isn't the focus of any major stories'.

Ohh I love analysis videos. I'll be sure to check them out. I hope I can make out most of it, since I usually follow ones that have closed caption (I'm actually hard of hearing) but will check them out sometime! Thanks.

[aveyond-dreams]

The issue is that you're accusing people of lying about an incredibly common human experience of lost a loved one or family member.

Most people in the world have in fact, experienced grief or loss in thier life. Why on earth would anyone ever need or want to lie about something like that? You might as well accuse someone of lying about having parents, or going to school.

Most well adjusted adults don't wield it like a cudgel against people they disagree with over the themes Endwalker tried and failed to address in a sensible way. I do not believe that certain FFXIV players are not beyond resorting to extreme emotional manipulation along with nonsensical lies in order to paint me and others as villains. When I witnessed this extremely bizarre behavior, I called it out.

Rewrite

Your rewrite does not have my seal of approval, though there are parts I will commend you for. I object to the removal of the darker elements that underlie ARR's world along with Ysayle's sacrifice, despite my appreciation of her character. I did however enjoy your ideas for the Stormblood section. I think the Shadowbringers section makes sense, we can agree to disagree on which characters we like or dislike. Your proposed solution for Elpis is partially helpful, though issue of Endwalker's themes and whether you would change them/express them via different means remains unaddressed.

[AwesomeJr44]

If you think a story is being written for four year olds, but frequently misunderstand it anyway, maybe it's time to reach a four year old's reading level.

As I said earlier, the FFXIV community seems to have a lot of Rick and Morty fans in it. If you don't love the story, you're apparently too stupid to understand it. FFXIV's story isn't that complex, it's quite easy to understand.

Then by all means why don't you grace us with a rewrite of your own? One that preferably avoids the terrible mishandling of grief, depression, and genocide in Endwalker.

As much as Cleretic is talking about of her anus, you probably could have come up with a better response. Telling someone who loves the story to give us a rewrite isn't really a good point. What are they supposed to significantly rewrite if they're happy with how it came out? Sure they can do little tweaks and edits here and there, but not anything groundbreaking.

Meanwhile you continue to belittle, talk down to, make fun of several people.

I'm of the opinion that once a stone has been thrown by another person, you're free to throw a stone at them if you so choose, and that the person who threw the first stone doesn't have the right to complain. Everyone I mentioned earlier has thrown a stone first, be it here in this thread, or in others. Besides, I have yet to call someone a Russian sympathizer for liking a fictional nation that isn't real like Kazemon did, nor did I say someone was less than human like Aveyond allegedly has, (I didn't see it if it did happen) so I'm not losing any sleep from struggling with the thought of whether I'm a terrible person or not.

And even though you say you might not agree with some people you never are seen doing so.

I've disagreed with Aveyond in the past if that's what you're referring to. He's not perfect and not every post he's had has been a good one. (See above)

All you ever seem to do is attack people so why should anyone want to even try to have a discussion with you.

If you're one of the people who aren't worth having a discussion with, it would certainly seem that way.

The guy you're defending had no better response to a 10-sentence-long post I made so he called it an essay, said he gave it only a "passing glance" and then tagged the thread with "essay writer's guild". But sure, everyone else is the problem.

Aveyond's nowhere near perfect, and I don't claim that he is, but I'd rather have a discussion with him than with most of the other people in this thread. The only reason I'm even here was because the thread itself was interesting.

Most well adjusted adults don't wield it like a cudgel against people they disagree with over the themes Endwalker tried and failed to address in a sensible way. I do not believe that certain FFXIV players are not beyond resorting to extreme emotional manipulation along with nonsensical lies in order to paint me and others as villains. When I witnessed this extremely bizarre behavior, I called it out.

^ This. Love or hate Endwalker, I don't care. But if you're not a trustworthy source, don't be surprised when people don't believe your stories, be they true or not. I'm not going to take what you have to say as truth if you've given me reason not to, especially with how rabid the community can be when it comes to defending the game. If me not accepting your words as truth offends you, then that's your issue to sort out.

Your rewrite does not have my seal of approval, though there are parts I will commend you for. I object to the removal of the darker elements that underlie ARR's world along with Ysayle's sacrifice, despite my appreciation of her character. I did however enjoy your ideas for the Stormblood section. I think the Shadowbringers section makes sense, we can agree to disagree on which characters we like or dislike. Your proposed solution for Elpis is partially helpful, though issue of Endwalker's themes and whether you would change them/express them via different means remains unaddressed.

I mostly agree with your assessment. The ARR and HW sections weren't great, but SB was pretty good and SHB is alright. I'm not sure if I'd personally want to swap WoL and Hades but it's an interesting enough idea. For EW, the Elpis part is alright but I think the answer to fixing Labyrinthhos is to just make it a lot shorter. Put more of Labyrinthos in the lv 80 quests, remove the unnecessary questline split, have Thavnir happen after Labyrinthos 1 is done,(it feels like they only did the split because SHB did) and have Labyrinthos 2 be much shorter. This would fit the story better in my opinion.

[Cleretic]

Your rewrite does not have my seal of approval, though there are parts I will commend you for.

I assure you, not having your seal of approval is the greatest sign I could've gotten that my thoughts on how to improve the game have merit.

[kaynide]

(Suggested reworking of MSQ)

I kept writing something like this as well, but I kept axing it because it was long.

A sort of TL;DR for me would be to rework the main gripes I have that I’d rework entirely is Endwalker. Unfortunately most of my ideas would be quite drastic and lead to a different direction.

1) End the Ascians with Shadowbringers. They are done. There wasn’t a need for further send off aside from needing a villain to drive us towards fighting Zodiark. This could easily just have been a Zenos so mad at losing to us that he’s hell bent on destroying the world. None of that “my dear friend” nonsense. If there are any remaining, leave them as unaccounted for and possibly a returning trouble maker in way later expansions; possibly as overlords on other shards. With Zodiark destroyed, this could open so many potential plot threads: they could just be about ending the world/revenge against us personally. They might try to find other ways to recreate their perfect world (cloning?). They might learn that even if they do bring their friends back, they won’t really be them.instead just primals like Elidabus.

Hell, some could even decide that since they can’t have the old world back…they’ll just live in this one becoming neutral or even cordial with us.

2) Make the entiiiiirrree plot about getting to the moon and defeating Zodiark. Leave the sound for another expansion and for the love of god, don’t make it a “whoops, ascians goofed” Meteion. I’m beating a dead horse with how many times I’ve said: just make it a cosmic world-ending horror Lavos monster. Even better if it’s already on the planet underground (go go Hollow Earth!)

3) Getting to the moon- we have telescopes, let us see that there is an ancient crashed ship, and a structure on the moon. We have to find a way to get there. Maybe get info from Azys Lla. Maybe leading to Elpis.

4)No time travel; rework Elpis to be told in flashbacks and make the area ruined/overgrown a la Laputa (anime). Automaton groundskeepers and all. The entire point would be to find a semi-functional ship that needs my boy Cid and tech from our various allies. Mammets from Sharlayan, rare metal from Ul’dah etc. not a “oh yeah lol, we have a ship already just need gas!”.

Could even need help from the Garleans via ceureleum fuel + engine.

5) No need to fight Hydaelyn, at all. Have her help in the fight to destroy Zodiark and just let her die with him.

6) No dynamis, no power of feelings, no “oh yeah primals that don’t enslave you teehee”. End of Days need not be despair monsters, but actual awakening hellspawn or some such.

6) Island sanctuary is about actually building a settlement for refugees, not some weird mammet industrial factory thing…

7) No Ultima Thule. Final zone is the moons interior. Where Zodiark awaits.

…it goes on and on…and it would be a very different story… and it’s already too long so I’ll cut myself off here


And I get a lotta people wouldn’t really jive with me, and that’s fine!

That is probably a success point for Endwalker- it has a lot of people talking about it for better or worse.

[Cleretic]

Save actual moderator action on Aveyond (which I think is unlikely for the reason I mentioned), changing the subject to something at least very slightly nicer to talk about...

I kept writing something like this as well, but I kept axing it because it was long.

I can't say I like all of your ideas on this (making the entire story 'a grand journey to kick Zodiark in the grill' feels way too expected, it'd be a boringly typical finale), and I'm not really sure what your version of Endwalker would really be trying to say as a story beyond 'sometimes you need to kill an evil wizard's dark god', some of this is genuinely neat and I hadn't thought of it before. I'd long ago ditched the notion of 'what if Elpis was just an Echo flashback' as kinda the most dull way to explore the information it gives us, but instead exploring Elpis as sky ruins with a big Ghibli vibe would actually do a whole lot to fix that, at least to a point where I can't immediately call it a downgrade. Of course it kinda strands Pandaemonium, and we won't know until 5.4 what their actual aim is for it enough to find a fix for that.

I'm not against these rewrites/edit notes as a concept, just as long as we recognize that A: there's a line of detail after which it's just fanfiction, and while fanfiction is fine we should recognize it for what it is, and B: those ideas are quite often worse than what we got in some way or another. Sometimes extremely so. Turns out the people paid to write the game tend to have thought about how to present its ideas and story more than we do, who'd have thought?

I like that Endwalker is imperfect in ways that let me think about it like this (it's WAY harder to 'improve' the other expansions even if I consider some of them worse, as you probably saw from my attempt) and consider ways it could've gone differently, it's a fun exercise that I don't get with a lot of other media I enjoy. But yeah, I'm not about to pretend my ideas are inherently better than theirs; hell, there'd be a decent chance that if I did somehow get the Endwalker with all my desired changes, I'd actually like it less somehow. I mean, if you gave me the story outline without me knowing how it'd go, I'd have probably cut Quintus, and his scenes were some of my favorites in the entire game. And I DEFINITELY wouldn't have thought of the Omicron tribe, even though I love both it and all of its inspirations.

[Thenightvortex]

I'm not against these rewrites/edit notes as a concept, just as long as we recognize that A: there's a line of detail after which it's just fanfiction, and while fanfiction is fine we should recognize it for what it is, and B: those ideas are quite often worse than what we got in some way or another. Sometimes extremely so. Turns out the people paid to write the game tend to have thought about how to present its ideas and story more than we do, who'd have thought?

Meanwhile, the “writers”:

What’s the lifespan of mortal races: Eh…I don’t know

Why are mortal races different when they all came from the same one: Well, like, miqo’te needed to hear really good and lalafells were under a lot of pressure I guess…

How much time has passed since 1.0 to Endwalker: Now that’s a rabbithole I don’t want to go into…Idk, how old is Y’shtola?

How did the Unsundered ascians escape: Well Emet was let go by Hydaelyn and the two others…Happened to be nearby idk?

What about the sundered overlords or black mask ascians: Wow guys you’re really paying close attention. Eh…They’re still out there, somewhere…

I’m drowning in sheer depth of the thought they have given to this story.

[Iscah]

Meanwhile, the “writers”:

What’s the lifespan of mortal races: Eh…I don’t know

Why are mortal races different when they all came from the same one: Well, like, miqo’te needed to hear really good and lalafells were under a lot of pressure I guess…

How much time has passed since 1.0 to Endwalker: Now that’s a rabbithole I don’t want to go into…Idk, how old is Y’shtola?

How did the Unsundered ascians escape: Well Emet was let go by Hydaelyn and the two others…Happened to be nearby idk?

What about the sundered overlords or black mask ascians: Wow guys you’re really paying close attention. Eh…They’re still out there, somewhere…

I’m drowning in sheer depth of the thought they have given to this story.

I agree the lack of thought put into the Sundering is evident and they just make it worse every time they seemingly make up answers on the fly, but we do have answers to most of the non-Sundering questions.

They do know, and have stated in the lorebook, how long the races live for – basically human rate, Elezen 10%-20% slower ageing, and Viera with their weird "young for two centuries" thing (though I don't think we know what happens after that, unless Ivalice lore tackles it perhaps).

And we know how time works – or rather, how we're supposed to pretend it doesn't work. We are officially not counting time since the beginning of the game, and it is always "five years since the Calamity" however many years-worth of adventure we fit into it.

Y'shtola has to be somewhere around 32 – she was 17 when she left Matoya's cave and has been involved with Scion business for at least 15 years since (going by 1.0 flashbacks).

And even if they have plans for the remaining Ascians, do you seriously expect they'll tell us about them? Deflecting off a future potential plot point is going to be the response whether they have a detailed plan or nothing at all.

[RukoBoshi]

I just wished Endwalker was actually two expansions.
One focused on Garlemald and it's surrounding regions like in HW or SHB, ending with our fight against Zodiark on the moon.
Garlemald deserved more than a single zone and being off screened by Zenos.
Anima should have been a trial too.

I think Zodiark not being the actual final opponent was a good idea, but that plot needed more time to properly get us intrigued and set up that antagonist.

I would put Garlemald and the moon in the same expansion, and developped the moon as something more than the lopporits hideout and an unused ship.
Ideally, it would have an ascians "city" and they would be some of the enemies before fighting Zodiark.
I can imagine some patches showing how these ascians processed the death of their god and ambitions. I think it would have been nice to tie up the fate of the remaining ascians that way.

Then the final expansion would have focused more on Sharlayan, Thavnair and Elpis.
I think both these cities storyline are fine, but suffered from having our group constantly moving from too many different places.
I'm particularly dissapointed that Thavnair is just one zone and city. I would have love to have a reason to explore the island more.