What even is the purpose of all those non melee/blm jobs?

[FireMage]

how are they more difficult?

They are more complex. Pretty basic

[Ggwppino]

They are more complex. Pretty basic

complex why? Do they have extra stuff to do? no, do they have extra stuff to think about during the mechanics? no, do they have less movement? currently not. So how are they more complex?

[Mikey_R]

complex why? Do they have extra stuff to do? no, do they have extra stuff to think about during the mechanics? no, do they have less movement? currently not. So how are they more complex?

Technically, positionals are a unique mechanic for all melee. They don't apply to every fight and you can negate the need to worry about hitting them with True North, however, planning the use of True North is again something the other DPS do not have to worry about.

[Ggwppino]

True North = Swiftcast

[Mikey_R]

True North = Swiftcast

And physical ranged don't have an equivalent, so technically, there is a bit more complexity in that regard.

[Ggwppino]

And physical ranged don't have an equivalent, so technically, there is a bit more complexity in that regard.

the physical ranged has to think about the various random procs that happen to him and how to use them in the best way, not having a rotation to learn muscularly. This leads him to pay more attention to the bar and less to the mechanics.

[Mikey_R]

the physical ranged has to think about the various random procs that happen to him and how to use them in the best way, not having a rotation to learn muscularly. This leads him to pay more attention to the bar and less to the mechanics.

That is just normal job rotation and not 'extra stuff', bearing in mind this whole things started as melee is more complex than physical ranged, so we are talking about roles as a whole and in that regard, MCH has no RNG, so it is not something shared with the role.

Going back, you mentioned a few things:

Do they have extra stuff to do? no

Which is false. Since Physical Ranged have no positionals and melee do, that is something extra.

do they have extra stuff to think about during the mechanics? no

Which is again false. Again, using positionals you have to consider how a boss moves during mechanics, whether or not you can hit the positional and then whether or not to use True North.


do they have less movement? currently not.

Technically yes, they have to stick to the boss and do not have free reign over tha arena like physical ranged do, so they are technically less mobile in regards to where they can stand, further reduced when a positional comes up.

Note that I am not saying that this makes a job massively complex, or that they should/should not balance around it, I am merely pointing out something that melees have to consider in an encounter that physical ranged do not. Having a faulty premise that leads to a conclusion is just going to cause issues and ignoring them will not make them go away. You can still agree that melees do have something else to consider and still bring the point that it should not be something that is considered in regards to dps, that is fine. That is your opinion. Just do not base it on faulty logic.

Also, yes, you can make similar cases for casters and physical ranged, what do they have that the other roles do not and then the further question of, should these factors be considered in regards to a job's damage.

[Valence]

And physical ranged don't have an equivalent, so technically, there is a bit more complexity in that regard.

Yes ironically enough positionals is what repels me to no end of playing melees, and not necessarily because I'm bad at them, but I just hate them as a personal taste. Even though we have less of them this expansion, but they still mess up with my concentration and focus.

On the other hand one could argue that playing around procs introduces a superior difficulty than just following your static, basic melee combo. Which is why MCH is totally a snoozefest for me, even though its accessibility is probably higher than dancer for a lot of newcomers to the job.

So I mean, for some people one is going to be a blocker and not the other one. We all have different affinities and I'm quite happy with that fact tbh, else everybody would play the same jobs.

Edit: now I mean, if they could add something specific to rphys just to shut down the whole argument, I would certainly not complain. Without anything, if anything they should have the most complex rotations ever, since they don't have to worry about positionals or cast time. I never liked the gauss barrel and minuet cast times, but I swear, if that's what it takes to equalize the roles and make that argument disappear for good, I'll take it, even if it turns rphys into casters once more.

[Mikey_R]

Yes ironically enough positionals is what repels me to no end of playing melees, and not necessarily because I'm bad at them, but I just hate them as a personal taste. Even though we have less of them this expansion, but they still mess up with my concentration and focus.

On the other hand one could argue that playing around procs introduces a superior difficulty than just following your static, basic melee combo. Which is why MCH is totally a snoozefest for me, even though its accessibility is probably higher than dancer for a lot of newcomers to the job.

And I am the complete opposite, I prefer the more rigid rotations of melee DPS and it is probably why I prefer MCH over Bard/Dancer for the physical ranged. I definitely know one of the reasons I wasn't a fan of playing Dancer was the complete RNG aspect that seems to be tied to everything (though I do prefer EW over ShB). I am even one of those weird people that liked Monk when it had positionals on all of it's GCDs.

However, this just shows that different people like different things in regards to how a job plays and shows that the "complexity" argument is effectively meaningless. One job is going to be complex for one person, but easy for another, just because it aligns with what they like more. This then begs the question, should a job's DPS be tied to a player's preferences. The obvious answer should be no, which then leads to, every job should do, roughly, the same amount of DPS, irregardless of role. It doesn't matter how complex the job is perceived to be, doesn't matter of it's ranged or melee or any other factors, they should do the same damage.

But, noone would play the more complex jobs, they would just play the easier ones, the naysayers would say, but the answer to that is simple. Different people like playing different things. Not everyone is looking for the easiest way to deal damage. I have already alluded to the fact I liked Monk when it had positionals on everything. I didn't really care what it's DPS was, as I just enjoyed playing the job and that is what is going to decide who plays what, how much they like the job and how it plays.

You can draw a similar parallel to fighting games. Why do people play high execution characters? Yes, they offer more of an advantage when played right (which is the only bit not relevant here) but why should they go through the effort to learn it when there are easier characters to pick up and play. The answer is because they want to learn. This is what they find fun. The same would be true here, people will play what they find fun.