Healers need an overhaul

[ForteNightshade]

So I'm curious then, how do you (or any other healer in this thread) feel about healing in the current savage tier? It seems to me (looking from the outside) that there is more of an emphasis on healing given the number of TB and raid wides that apply heavy dots on the party in addition to damage events that seem to only be there to strip shields before a heavier hit (think the sonic screams into a Ruby glow on P5s). Especially when it comes to TBs given most tanks are unable to simply invuln it and call it a day and need to use their own mitigation to lessen the subsequent bleed/dot.

This tier has been a nice step forward in opinion. It doesn't address the post-prog healing gameplay because we still reach a point where we simply outgear P5-7 enough to entirely oGCD them. Purgation is probably the only mechanic in those three fights that may still need a GCD shield but progress is progress. P8S is the first Savage fight in six years we literally can't oGCD heal. I want to see more of this because it's actually making us utilize our full kit regardless if it's a safety clear or a log run.

Of course, this does nothing to address the content below Savage. Which remains a snore. I like the concept of Variant Dungeons but it really highlights how poorly thought out the Healer role is. With a four person comp, healers are entirely irrelevant. That should never be the case, regardless of the content's intended difficulty. So the dev team still has a ways to go in making the healing role interesting again.

Because it is fact. This is the samething as someone accused me of "gaslighting" for simply saying "green DPS".

There were no issue with WHM at the beginning of 6.0 if you look at from a healing respective. It has strong heal, decent MP economy if one ultilize its full kit, while still contribute meaningful DPS. In the absent of FFlog and players are inclined to play the class as it's designed, there would be no problem because there would be no reason not to. The minimum DPS loss wouldn't make or break even the hardest encounter. It's a simple, comfy healing class with plenty of mobility.

That issue was 100% a self-created, artificially constructed by the community because of a small difference that makes no difference in any in-game context, but some ranking on a third party website.

It isn't fact though.

White Mage was the only healer essentially punished for utilizing their own job gauge. Someone wanting their job to be at a competitive level to its respective counterparts doesn't necessarily make them a "green DPS". At least not in the context you're using that term. Furthermore, it wasn't a minimal DPS. In fact, let's review! Grabbing a random top ranked White Mage from P6S. They used Rapture 21 times. At 310 potency from Glare III, this would equate to a 2,170 potency loss throughout the fight. A rough estimation puts that well over 500 rDPS just... thrown away for no tangible benefit. What does White Mage offer the other healers cannot do better without suffering a massive damage loss? Absolutely nothing. Those big "burst heals" aren't relevant. Not only is shield healing and mitigation objectively better than regeneration, Astro can easily handle the load just fine.

In other words, there is no reason to bring a healer whose main gimmick is "healing" at a loss. This isn't a "self-created" problem but a poor balancing one.

The irony here is you bring up FFlogs, which yes, have influenced the community on the whole. It's also the only reason Savage retains any relevancy outside of Ultimate gearing. Without that website, Savage would be entirely dead content within 2-3 months. If not sooner.

[Raven2014]

The irony here is you bring up FFlogs, which yes, have influenced the community on the whole. It's also the only reason Savage retains any relevancy outside of Ultimate gearing. Without that website, Savage would be entirely dead content within 2-3 months. If not sooner.

Bold word considering we're in week 9 and the majority of PF are still trying to prog/clear P8S. As someone who has 1 main in a static but PF on 3 alts, trust me ... I count.

And usually after first clear you need an average of 8 additional week to full gear up (and that's by static standard). Let me tell you, there is a world that exist outside of the static bubble and the top 5-10% and first week/month clearer, and that world have a lot of players. I had something like 200-300 clears on all floors last tier, and I'm someone who don't give a crap about parse. I play for the fun, the loot, the glam, the alt-job .etc. and I can assure you there are a lot like me.

[ForteNightshade]

Bold word considering we're in week 9 and the majority of PF are still trying to prog/clear P8S. As someone who has 1 main in a static but PF on 3 alts, trust me ... I count.

And usually after first clear you need an average of 8 additional week to full gear up (and that's by static standard). Let me tell you, there is a world that exist outside of the static bubble and the top 5-10% and first week/month clearer, and that world have a lot of players. I had something like 200-300 clears on all floors last tier, and I'm someone who don't give a crap about parse. I play for the fun, the loot, the glam, the alt-job .etc. and I can assure you there are a lot like me.

And I can assure you those people supposedly like you are incentivized by the reward structure. As are people still trying to clear and prog P8S. You're vastly underestimating just how many people only care about rewards when doing content. What purpose does that gear serve without a leaderboard and no Ultimate? It's functionally worthless because no content demands it. We've only just gotten Criterion, which still doesn't actually require Savage gear but it is advisable. It's also received a largely lukewarm reception because... the rewards suck.

My dude, I have almost 300 kills of Asphodelos spread across five different jobs. The overwhelming majority of them in PF. I'm far from in a "static bubble." You really need to stop making sweeping assumptions of people. What you tend to notice in PF is the large number of players with multiple clears, good logs and etc. There's almost always at least one player there to parse but often more. Now that doesn't mean they'll throw or even push for 99%. They may just be trying to improve their performance in small increments. Without FFlogs, those players are all gone. They have no reason to care about the content, thus no reason to help others clear. Even at the more casual raid level, a lot of people care about numbers. The only difference is they'll be excited getting blue whereas a hardcore player will be upset with a low ranked 99%.

Take that away and you remove a big motivation for Savage. There's a reason the dev team have left FFlogs alone for all these years.

[Raven2014]

My dude, I have almost 300 kills of Asphodelos spread across five different jobs. The overwhelming majority of them in PF. I'm far from in a "static bubble." You really need to stop making sweeping assumptions of people.

It was a response to this:

The irony here is you bring up FFlogs, which yes, have influenced the community on the whole. It's also the only reason Savage retains any relevancy outside of Ultimate gearing. Without that website, Savage would be entirely dead content within 2-3 months. If not sooner.

That doesn't sound like a sweeping assumption if not categorical and factually incorrect to you?

To be in a position to tell people to stop doing something, you kinda need to be not doing it in yourself the first place, don't you think?

[ForteNightshade]

And making statement "savage content will be death in 2-3 months if not sooner" is not only a sweeping assumption if not categorical and factually incorrect?

It cannot be factually incorrect because we never had a tier without FFlogs since Heavensward. Your entire argument is based on assumption. Conversely, we can look at content with lackluster rewards or without some form of built in longevity and see a marked decline in participation as the months drag on. We can also infer SE wouldn't tolerant a third party program and website they've opened said they dislike for 6+ years if it wasn't beneficial to them in some manner. You can argue whether Savage would die off that quickly but you're kidding yourself if you don't think FFlogs has a massive influence on the raid community.

There are other factors that would lead to this result such as it being extremely difficult to vet players for content like Ultimate causing it to become far more exclusive but at this point, we're getting way off topic. To bring it back around to healers. Defending an objectively imbalanced design on the basis it wouldn't matter what your DPS is because you can't see it anymore is a laughably bad take. It's the same argument as telling the Prange players to stop complaining their entire role exists because of an arbitrary 1% buff forcing parties to take them. Just "shut up and accept your damage is crap" or to borrow your phasing. "It's just a self-created problem you feel bad your doing almost a 1,000 less damage than the Melee for no reason."

[Raven2014]

Your entire argument is based on assumption.

And yours isn't?

It cannot be factually incorrect because we never had a tier without FFlogs since Heavensward.

Raiding in MMO has existed way before FFLog came to be my dude.

Conversely, we can look at content with lackluster rewards or without some form of built in longevity and see a marked decline in participation as the months drag on. We can also infer SE wouldn't tolerant a third party program and website they've opened said they dislike for 6+ years if it wasn't beneficial to them in some manner.

Basically a bunch of conjectured base on circumstances ... aka assumption?

I mean ... look, I have no problem with people using assumption, that wasn't the point. The point was I think it was just a bit rich you accusing me of making "sweeping assumption" then making even a sweeper assumption in the same breath.

You can argue whether Savage would die off that quickly but you're kidding yourself if you don't think FFlogs has a massive influence on the raid community.

I wasn't kidding myself because I never said that, you're putting word in my mouth just to disagree lol. Ironically my opinion is actually the opposite, I think FFlog has an outsized influence on the community, and I hate it. But going from "have influence on the community to death within 2-3 weeks" is what called a stretch, massive stretch even.

Defending an objectively imbalanced design on the basis it wouldn't matter what your DPS is because you can't see it anymore is a laughably bad take.

That's because you laugh at the wrong thing.

- First off: raiding had existed way before any kind of metric addon exists.

- Secondly: DPS meter had also exist before. 10+ years ago I raid in WoW, hardcore, both in term of quality and quantity. But back then it was a personality and local thing. Like if you're not beating enrage, the leader check to see who's the under-peformer is to weed them out. Sure, there are some friendly competition to see who top the raid DPS but the mentality is "the highest priority is you do what need to get the clear, push if necessary but there is generally no need to risk mistake by being greedy".


Remember I said my conclusion is not due to just the content of this thread, but from other aspect of the community? FFlog would have been a fantastic tool if it's not for the existent of its ranking system, that things tinkle people ego. I've been raiding for probably 20 years now across many MMO, and I've never the level of greed that started appearing in the FFlog era. The complain about WHM isn't an issue about MP, in-efficient or w/e. I don't argue the fact it is less efficient, I argue the notion that the reason it's blew up to such a large issue because the WHM who refuse to use the MP-efficient heal will have a few percentage higher than a WHM who do.


Maybe that is an assumption, maybe it's not, but my thought process is not really that different than yours with you claim really, so at least you can drop the whole the pot trying to call the kettle black. To borrow your wordign style: "you're kidding yourself if you don't think FFlogs has a massive influence on the ego of the raid community." See what I just did here?

[Shurrikhan]

FFlog would have been a fantastic tool if it's not for the existent of its ranking system, that things tinkle [tickles?] people ego. I've been raiding for probably 20 years now across many MMO, and I've never [seen?] the level of greed that started appearing in the FFlog era.

Those Top-10/100/etc. rankings are a huge part of the reasons content stays relevant past gear acquisition.

Blue Mage may likewise be irrelevant to you, on the basis that you don't enjoy that way of interacting with the game, but that doesn't make it any less a means of getting enjoyable hours out of the game for those who do enjoy it. The difference is simply that the in-game content (Blue Mage, in this case) has opportunity cost for its bringing that addition to the game (as time spent developing it means less development elsewhere), while the meta-content (fflogs/rankings) does not.

Reflexively greedy positioning, moreover, as to push the boundaries of what is safe in a mechanic for more dps, isn't just an fflogs thing. It's... the habit by which you tend to develop as soon as possible the muscle memory with which you'll actually complete any challenging fight, rather than learning the mechanics and concretely how to deal with them separately (thereby having to relearn muscle memory and one's finer sense of timing many times over). Unless the content is tuned very leniently, it also frequently tends to get a team's first clear faster and with less aggravation, not just with a better parse.

Should fflogs probably feature in a more central position performance scores based on relative potency per minute (less affected by primary stat differences) or divided by item level? Sure. Should it further Context-for-Dummies the difference in jobs -- noting, for instance, that even if one swaps out the highest rDPS-performing job for the lowest, one would still clear only some 6 seconds later out of 8 minutes? Yeah, that'd probably be good. Should it probably default to an anonymous contribution to logs? Also, yeah, probably, so that the one-guy auto-logging drunken banter clears isn't flooding his party's history with low parses.

But fflogs is not pulling habits out of nowhere, nor are all parse-minded habits necessarily for the worse.

The complain about WHM isn't an issue about MP, in-efficient or w/e. I don't argue the fact it is less efficient, I argue the notion that the reason it's blew up to such a large issue because the WHM who refuse to use the MP-efficient heal will have a few percentage higher than a WHM who do.

But, again... that wasn't the main issue. The primary issue taken with pre-buffs Misery was the slap-to-the-face of a core/iconic skill's functionality having been obviously neglected, and thereby worsened with the changing context, just because the devs couldn't be bothered to remember what skills WHM has and how they interact.