YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[ForteNightshade]

What part of

you didn't understand before talking about my datacenter?
If you're adult and still can't read all the text (that you are replying to at least) before replying, don't bother replying to it in first place. it is a waste of time. (Hell considering whatever you wrote, I'm pretty sure you don't even bother to read or take community policy to an account either)

Again, regardless of my datacenter or yours- my point still stands. It is that YOU GUYS WANT IT TO BE NORM, but it never is. you wanna tank to be "useful" all the time? stop pulling silently and throw tantrum on forum or whatever when you die in next 2 seconds. Ironically, it isn't "useful" or helpful behavior.
You want tank to always take your speedrunning playstyle to into account but your tank don't feel like doing it (and you really wanna insist), you gotta communicate or take it up your...back. Sometimes even I don't feel like taking 2 groups not because I can't handle it, but because PTDPS is so bad all of my mits gonna go all cd before next group. You know what happens if there is no mitigation? healer go cry cry because they can't spam holy every 2 seconds and I will definitely floor tank anywhere above 65+ dungeons, and that won't be my fault. Luckily that won't happen as much on 90 because most tank have an absurd amount of way to deal with damage, but the bad dps issue still occurs sometime.

Whatever other thing I wanted to say is already mentioned by three guys below you so, yeah

Speaking of throwing a tantrum. If you're going to throw one yourself and accuse someone of not reading, perhaps you should take your own advice. While yes, I did use Expert as an example. I specifically said 70+ dungeons in the very post you quoted. Funny how you conveniently missed that part in your little rant.

With that said, you can scream it's "not the norm!" all you fancy. It is on NA and EU datacenters. We simply have a different philosophy here. Whether it be 90—erm, I'm sorry, that seemed to trigger—89 or lower, tanks will overwhelming W2W. If they don't, it'll be a two pack pull. The only exception you'll see are the super pulls from ShB, i.e: Qitana and Mt. Gulg, specifically. So, no. Your point doesn't stand. You're trying to apply a JP philosophy onto NA and wondering why you're getting push back. Bit ironic considering one of JP's criticisms of NA is doing precisely that.

Now for the portion of your post I highlighted. To be entirely blunt here, if you aren't pulling two packs above 70 (honestly, it should be above 60), you aren't capable of tanking. Which is perfectly fine. Just go practice in lower level content until you get better. There's nothing wrong with lacking experience. There is, however, when you queue into content above your experience and demand everyone conform to your preference. Now if the majority of people want to pull small and sightsee, more power to them. The odd person out is the wall puller, thus they should "take it up your... back" as you so eloquently put it or eat the 30 minute penalty. Even as a tank main, I'll abide by the majority. If I'm not in the mood for a sightseeing run, I'll just leave and do something else for 30 minutes.

All of your mitigation being on CD, generally, means you don't know how to tank properly and should practice cycling your CDs in lower level content. There are exceptions of course but they are rare even with a healer who doesn't use oGCDs. Conversely, you could use the Duty Support system. You know, that feature literally designed for players who want a slow, RP-esque experience without having to worry about random player interruption. Use it. You wanna know what's frustrating? Players who refuse to use Duty Support because "it's too slow!" or "I play an MMO to play with people not bots!" Only to then get mad when said people have differing preferences.

At the end of the day, a tank pulling one pack is nothing more than a gimped DPS. Your role is literally useless. You aren't needed whatsoever. The Dragoon with Bloodbath will be just as efficient tanking as you will be due to how little damage three mobs actually do. You keep calling W2W a "speedrun." Actual speedruns drop healers entirely. Most dungeon from at least Stormblood up, can and have been W2W without a healer. Even Dark Knight can W2W a good chunk of dungeons without a healer. So if you don't even need a healer, period, when pulling 6-8 mobs. Imagine how paltry the damage is to a tank with only three mobs? In fact, you want to know how bad single pulls are? Urianger can heal the big pull in Mt. Gulg. Not the ridiculous super pull but the first wave of nine mobs? He can handle that. So you pulling one pack there means you're less effective than a bot.

The irony is by making mobs so non-threatening, the devs have inadvertently encouraged DPS and Healers to pull because there's next to no risk in them doing so.

@ ForteNightshade

Umm . . . it's not just new or anxious tanks. Even our OP agrees that the issue is not always black and white. Some tanks might downgrade to single pulls to accommodate for the other roles. We sometimes get "Cure bot" healers (that Free Cure trait) and / or single target DPS (because Alisaie does it and the animations look cooler, right?). I am kidding with the brackets.

Sometimes the tanks may very well want to mass pull too, but can't because a few other group members wouldn't be able to handle it. At the same time, I wouldn't want to just kick them from group since they may very well become great healers or DPS later on. Maybe talk to the group nicely if you want them to learn the ropes faster?

These are the exception not the rule. Even a "Cure bot" can keep a tank alive unless it's Cure I. In which case, I'll explain to them why they shouldn't be using Cure I passed level 30 for the most part. On the rare occasion they refuse, I'll either leave or Vote Kick. I'm not going to single pull because I have a WHM who refuses to utilize their kit. At that point, you're griefing your team and should stick to Trusts. Obviously, this applies to higher level dungeons. I don't have this expectation in say, Stone Vigil or even The Vault. Mt. Gulg though? I can appreciate you struggling on the super pull, and will back down from that. If you're still spamming Cure I by then though? That's just griefing. It's little different than queuing into the dungeon with 60 gear.

[Llynethil]

It's just wrong dungeon etiquette to be pulling as dps or healer.

Tank leads, you follow and hit what the tank pulls, simple as.

If he only pull one pack, deal with it, how vain do you have to be that those 5 extra minutes matter THAT much to you?
it only happens like 1 out of 500 dungeon runs anyway, I don't think I've had it happen a single expert roulette in endwalker so far, but if it does, I'll let the tank be and let kardia heal him while I chill and listen to a podcast on youtube.

If you don't want this to happen, tank yourself then or group with a tank friend you know pulls as much as possible, problem solved.

[Tigore]

If there is one thing I can say is constant for both FF14 and WoW, MMO games have not been doing a very good job with teaching their own players how to use the classes / jobs. This was one of the base points I was getting at and I was getting concerned how this situation was going to be handled by the other players. Both games have relied on third party sites to do the job for them on teaching the players. Icy Veins was usually the site of choice for Warcraft with "The Balance" Discord channel being the choice for FF14. Icy Veins is also attempting to become a resource for FF14 too, but I am currently noticing the Balance still being the best choice. Admittedly, I had to take a look see there to verify what the Ogi combo and Blitz system did to the Samurai and Monk classes. Eventually, I did my own adaptations when enemy packs died at different times expected. Still, seeing the best opener rotations for Savage runs really helped.

It would be nice to see the Trusts improved to grants AoEs to the NPCs as well. I believe they didn't do it yet because maybe they thought it might step on the toes of the current roulette runs . . . or maybe there is still work to be done for the code to read when they have 3+ viable targets in their range. I don't see Trusts replacing player runs for a couple reasons still. The NPCs have their own spells to use and do not have the special damage increasing cooldowns we have as the goated Warriors of Light. One of them doesn't even follow the traditional Black Mage rotation and cycles through the White Mage elements. The NPCs also stop doing damage on occasion when they are obeying mechanics. As for the NPC tanks, healers and DPS doing the double pulls, I suppose that could be "Normal difficulty" with Single Pulls being "Easy difficulty". They might need to be programmed to pause a couple GCDs by the first group, then they all run to the second group for Normal difficulty. As for the stiffness in the resurrection being non-existent for the first Trust runs, I think they managed to make a buff that gave this to you in an 89 8 man Trial Trust run. You will be stunned for 5 seconds when you "die", but will get back up with the buff subtracting 1 from itself for available self-rezzes. Some adaptation of that self-rez buff might work for the other 4 man dungeon variants during each boss.

The Halls of Novice I hear may show promise in being a tool to help teach the players. So far, I just hear it teaches some role basics. It may need some class / job specific tutorials with a scenario made to test and check the use of the skills. Once the scenarios for each skill is introduced, a 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 challenge scenario can be done to test how well the player can use cooldowns for double pulls or bosses. It may need to suggest Regen and Divine Benison (lvl 70) for the WHM case as a base, but mention that at least another cooldown or spell heal over time should be supplemented with these 2.

[Tint]

I always find it funny when a DD runs ahead to pull enemies. In the end it just slows the run down. Tank has to grab all the enemies which are running all over the place, healers have to heal unnecessary damage and nobody can properly AoE the mobs down.

And it often is not "because the tank was too slow", they are often ranged dps who run ahead before the mobs died and use movement skills to be even faster. No tank possibly can be that fast. Well maybe if they too start running before the mobs are dead, casters and melee dps love that >.>

[TheLegendaryKai]

When I tank I grab any mobs I see. My role as a tank is to keep the aggro of any mob that attacks my comrades and I. If any mob starts being aggressive towards us(either from me or my comrades getting their attention, doesnt really matter), I will take their aggro. Simple as that.

[Shurrikhan]

I always find it funny when a DD runs ahead to pull enemies. In the end it just slows the run down. Tank has to grab all the enemies which are running all over the place, healers have to heal unnecessary damage and nobody can properly AoE the mobs down.

...This is incredibly rare. The vast majority of non-tank pulls just guide the pulled mobs right through tank AoEs and/or used Bloodbath, Arm's Length and/or Second Wind to decrease tank and healer resources used over the pull.

[LifeupOmega]

God I love dps who run ahead and Arm's Length mobs for me, they're solid and cooler than anyone in this thread who whines about dps pulling for tanks.

[Deveryn]

Tanks are meant to take hits. DPS are made to give hits. Why this discussion keeps popping up is beyond me. Next thing you'll try to sell us on is BLM ley line deaths are worth the 50% drop to DPS.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Tanks are meant to take hits. DPS are made to give hits. Why this discussion keeps popping up is beyond me. Next thing you'll try to sell us on is BLM ley line deaths are worth the 50% drop to DPS.

Gotta love your strawman/false equivalency.

DPS are able to pull and tank in Normal mode content. Tanks simply excel at it. This has no equivalence to a BLM standing in their Ley Lines and dying because of it.

Outside of the new addition of Criterion, mobs do pitiful damage either way. Melee jobs in particular have solid longevity as long as they have access to Bloodbath and individual melee jobs have something in their kit that complements it.

If melee jobs can survive an Onslaught of three to four mobs that he pulls to the tank then the tank is not exactly in a position to scream "this is too much for me!". At that point I'd ask him to turn off tank stance every second pull and focus on damage.

[Ravenwatch]

Can't have your cake and eat it too. If pulling over the tank isn't griefing than neither is the tank not picking up those mobs.

Mind you, I wouldn't complain as a tank. I'd just pick the add up and continue. Not worth the argument. More time would be spent arguing than just completing the content and moving on from that player. Also, the logistics of NOT picking up that mob (AOE attacks) make it a bit silly to even discuss it.

This is just false equivalency that is easy to decipher. If I'm tanking and a dps or healer pulls mobs to me, I'll just collect them as its my job to make sure theyre not hitting the party(even be thankful). It's not the end of the world if they pull and I can still do my role if they do this wisely and everyone is happy.

As a tank, purposefully avoiding picking up threat and avoiding protecting the party(your role) because of some internalized payback to those not catering to "YOUR" playstyle is an entirely different beast.