People who can't do AOE rotations in 70+ Content

[Mikey_R]

That said, some of the leveling dungeons at higher levels have abnormally nasty trash packs. Bardam's Mettle is pretty notorious for having some really painful trash waves before the first boss. The last packs of trash before the final boss of both the Tower of Zot and the Tower of Babil are pretty rough. It's ironic how these dungeons have much nastier trash enemies, and then you fast forward to The Fell Court of Troia and it feels like the trash is actually healing the tank with how little damage they deal (which is kinda true actually if your tank is a WAR).

This is literally just to do with the range of ilevel the dungeons are made to accommodate. The ilevel range for a levelling dungeon is much smaller than a max level dungeon, so you effectively are running it close to minimum ilevel, even at the max sync.

[Tiramu]

If you don't have an inkling of how healers work at 60 through multiple instances of passively observing them in content that's a YOU problem

In much the same way as sitting in the passenger seat doesnt teach you how to drive, encountering other healers doesnt teach you how to heal... especially when levelling players are also learning their own jobs, about mechanics etc.

Once again though, like our first exchange on here where you invented some weird narrative about us hating each other on my 2nd post on this forum where I said I'd prefer parses to be kept private... you've invented a weird narrative here too, making a whole bunch of assumptions.

Yeah, I struggled with Scholar after switching from SMN, having my first few groups in Bardams Mettle was rough. But, while I struggled we also didnt wipe and got told I was doing great in my first trials. Although, I think they were just being kind.

Whether I'm personally good or bad at any particular job is besides the point though. I dont think having jobs start at a high level, or multi-level across roles is a particularly helpful design choice when learning jobs.

[Saraide]

In much the same way as sitting in the passenger seat doesnt teach you how to drive, encountering other healers doesnt teach you how to heal... especially when levelling players are also learning their own jobs, about mechanics etc.

Once again though, like our first exchange on here where you invented some weird narrative about us hating each other on my 2nd post on this forum where I said I'd prefer parses to be kept private... you've invented a weird narrative here too, making a whole bunch of assumptions.

Yeah, I struggled with Scholar after switching from SMN, having my first group in Bardams Mettle was rough. But, while I struggled we also didnt wipe and got told I was doing great in my first trials. Although, I think they were just being kind.

Whether I'm personally good or bad at any particular job is besides the point though. I dont think having jobs start at a high level, or multi-level across roles is a particularly helpful design choice when learning jobs.

Healing in dungeons is several magnitudes easier than driving a car. It is one of those things where you can easily pick up the underlying ideas of what's good and what's not by looking at a healer and using your brain for a few seconds. It's just a numbers game and yet we still have people making their gameplay harder for no reason by only using the worst spells they have. Like cure 1.

[ty_taurus]

Ohhhh no we are getting a little bit more into this argument now. See this is what Ive been wanting to hear. Not any of these stupid "lol dont need to heal" comments. So case in point, you do need to heal.

I mean, when people say "you don't need to heal," it's moreso exaggerating that all the healing you need to do is done through OGCDs, and not very many of them. It's done to address how little healing is actually required--that good healing means not touching your GCD heals and just spamming your DPS.

I listed off all the tools you have to work with on SCH, but you shouldn't actually need all of them. I don't play SCH at all after ShB, but I'd pre-place Recitation-boosted Excog on the tank then hit them with Aetherpact and I imagine that would be enough in most scenarios. I have more experience wth SGE, so I can give a more detailed example of what I've done to heal dungeons:

Kardia on the tank, pre-pull cast E. Diagnosis on them, and everyone else if time allowed before we engage with the trash wave, then weave Kerachole after some DPS. After 15 seconds passes, I'll heal the tank with Taurochole. That's it. That's usually more than enough for almost every dungeon pull I've ever gone through. If things actually do get messier, I'll use Soteria and/or Haima as needed. If the dungeon level is lower than when Kerachole gets its HoT, I can just use Drocholes instead.

[FireMage]

In much the same way as sitting in the passenger seat doesnt teach you how to drive, encountering other healers doesnt teach you how to heal... especially when levelling players are also learning their own jobs, about mechanics etc.

Once again though, like our first exchange on here where you invented some weird narrative about us hating each other on my 2nd post on this forum where I said I'd prefer parses to be kept private... you've invented a weird narrative here too, making a whole bunch of assumptions.

Yeah, I struggled with Scholar after switching from SMN, having my first few groups in Bardams Mettle was rough. But, while I struggled we also didnt wipe and got told I was doing great in my first trials. Although, I think they were just being kind.

Whether I'm personally good or bad at any particular job is besides the point though. I dont think having jobs start at a high level, or multi-level across roles is a particularly helpful design choice when learning jobs.

You gave all the information needed, I invented nothing. How does one hit 60 and not pick up some of what other people are doing? Like y'all (royal you) have eyes, right?

[Mikey_R]

You gave all the information needed, I invented nothing. How does one hit 60 and not pick up some of what other people are doing? Like y'all (royal you) have eyes, right?

And, for the vast majority of people levelling a job for the first time, they are more focused on themselves and the boss rather than random healer/tank/dps.

[FireMage]

And, for the vast majority of people levelling a job for the first time, they are more focused on themselves and the boss rather than random healer/tank/dps.

I mean walk and chew bubblegum?

[ty_taurus]

This is literally just to do with the range of ilevel the dungeons are made to accommodate. The ilevel range for a levelling dungeon is much smaller than a max level dungeon, so you effectively are running it close to minimum ilevel, even at the max sync.

I know why it happens, but that doesn't make it good. Max level dungeons shouldn't have these wide ilvl ranges when leveling dungeons don't. It's bizarre and feels backwards if anything. How is something called "Expert Roulette" the roulette that chooses between what are essentially two of the easiest dungeons in the game? Other than just familiarity due to repetition, why are they some of the most gentle-hitting dungeons in the game? That isn't good design.

[Mikey_R]

I know why it happens, but that doesn't make it good. Max level dungeons shouldn't have these wide ilvl ranges when leveling dungeons don't. It's bizarre and feels backwards if anything. How is something called "Expert Roulette" the roulette that chooses between what are essentially two of the easiest dungeons in the game? Other than just familiarity due to repetition, why are they some of the most gentle-hitting dungeons in the game? That isn't good design.

Oh, I do fully agree. Dungeons where you don't vastly out-gear them are much more fun. The best time to do max level dungeons are at the start of an expansion where you cannot out-gear them and they are actually threatening.

I also hate the fact expert only has the 2 most recent dungeons, I would prefer it kept everything in it but treat it like other roulettes, you need to have at least 2 dungeons unlocked to use it and it picks from what you have unlocked. At least there would be more variety that way, even if the gear gets synced down.

[ty_taurus]

Oh, I do fully agree. Dungeons where you don't vastly out-gear them are much more fun. The best time to do max level dungeons are at the start of an expansion where you cannot out-gear them and they are actually threatening.

I also hate the fact expert only has the 2 most recent dungeons, I would prefer it kept everything in it but treat it like other roulettes, you need to have at least 2 dungeons unlocked to use it and it picks from what you have unlocked. At least there would be more variety that way, even if the gear gets synced down.

I'd argue the concept of Expert Roulette vs Level 90 Roulette is no longer necessary. Back when each patch added 2 dungeons, it made sense because you'd end up with a fairly long list of max level dungeons, but since we've gone down to 1 dungeon per patch, I think just having Expert Roulette be the level 90 Roulette makes more sense. What we could do by the time the .3 patch roles around (e.g. 6.3) is split it up then to have 3/3 between Expert and level 90, and then 4/3 respectively by 6.4 and 4/4 by 6.5. It's a little wonky but would feel better in my opinion.

On a separate topic, I'd also like to see 50/60/70/80 split up into 50/60 Roulette and 70/80 Roulette. A big part of the roulettes is trying to ensure that there's a healthy population of players available to help others clear those dungeons for the first time, but each expansion is going to continue pulling on that. The same could be argued for leveling dungeons, trials, alliances, and normal raids. What we might eventually see is a big addition of more roulettes, but daily roulette allowances with some time of added incentive for certain roulettes. Like who's going to do Guildheist roulettes if that consumes 1 allowance? So there'd need to be some more detailed organization of how that plays out.