Yoshi-P "definitive" answer on third party tools from today's 14 hour stream

[SaberMaxwell]

No it's not, read the cases:

These aren't dismissing you for belonging to a demographic, they're dismissing you for underperforming. Square's the one who wrote those examples, the homophobia/racism bit? That's on another part : o

Okay, but let's say the person was dismissed without a word (which is the far more likely way this action is performed). What then? How do you prove intent?

Also it is worth bringing up that both fall under the same "offensive expression" section, so you might allow me a bit of incorrectness on the exact subsection.

True. Which is why I said tangentially rubbed on it, because you can use Vote Dismiss on someone after revealing they're being bad on parses.

I guess that's fair, but in response I'd say it's asking for misinterpretation when you bring tangents into a discussion like this as you can probably tell from the responses you've gotten.

Ah. Now that's a different matter entirely, because that's when context comes in. But you cannot use parses as the excuse for it : o

The thing is, what has happened is it has turned the whole community more JP-like where you won't be told why you're booted. You'll just end up back in the overworld wondering who, what, when, where, and why.

[Midareyukki]

Vote dismiss is entirely irrelevant. We are talking about PFs. 'Expressions that exclude someone' is also irrelevant because you do not need to state a reason to kick someone from your PF. You can do so without saying a single word. No PF host is forced to keep you in the party. You have no right to be in someone's PF party, they are giving you the privilege to be there.

I should probably edit that post since people are clearly not reading it. I said "tangentially rub on the topic". Because FireMage is right: you can kick people out for differences in playstyle.
But you can't kick someone for underperforming and pointing it out through parses. And I don't think people will sit and wait for you to count things on the Battle Log when they ask you "Hey, where are you getting the information that I'm the one underperforming to such extent?"

Okay but Midare, lets say the person just got dismissed without a word. What then?

:shrug:

Why are you asking me this? I was just answering FireMage who wanted evidence to Atelier's statement that it's against the TOS to kick someone from the PF due to parses.

...are you guys even reading the context AT ALL? xD


If they kick you without saying a word, then I suppose you can report it??? I guess???? But I didn't see anything about it, and I personally just move on with my life :P But I'm not Square, and since I haven't found anything about that, then, again: hell if I know xD

Edit: I cannot believe I have to do this but here we go!

This was Atelier's post to Azuri, claiming you can't use parses as a reason to kick people from PF parties.
To which FireMage then asked for evidence. I got curious and I posted what the ToS actually say.

Anything past this is not my purview, and I stated it as well: it's really confusing sometimes because Square's just that vague. I know as much if not probably less than you guys. The one thing I do know is what Square did write, and they wrote that much.

Edit Edit :P Because post limits!

It's not even tangentially related. There is no vote dismiss in PF.

Alright. Now that I agree, I'm ovestepping and adding in Duty Finder as a reality to this. My apologies then.

You can cite other things "Like that SAM didn't use a single Midare"

I guess. And that's something you actually can pay attention to. I've paid attention to people executing their combo finishers or not even bothering with positionals before, so this can happen. But if it's like... the heat of battle and you see a pattern but don't know for sure if the person's the reason why you're not doing enough, or if the whole party's that trash, then that can be a bit hard.

Though :P In which case! The hell are you even doing in that party xD leave

Still. That's what the TOS itself says, in its vague glory.

Actually the hell am I saying?? Dude, Atelier says "parses", you looking at what people are doing isn't parses. It's observation :| it's not the same as what you were asking evidence for!!!
(Well, Azuri, not Atelier, but you responded to Atelier's response to Azuri)

Because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just tossing the Terms of Service out like a shield to hide behind, and are actually willing to think. I updated my previous post, but the gist of it is "This is how the game typically operates; when someone is kicked, it's silently" and that "it's a bit naive to expect every elitist to be a moustache twirling monster who tries to rub salt in the wound."

Well then I hope that it became clear to you that I'm not using it as a shield (?), just answering what someone asked for: proof that you cannot use parses as justification to kick someone from PF.

The rest was a mix of vagueness that you guys helped clarify and, as Saraide pointed out, me erroneously expanding the concept over to Duty Finder. I'm not defending myself of anything xD I literally just parachuted into this convo, with limited posts!

[FireMage]

I should probably edit that post since people are clearly not reading it. I said "tangentially rub on the topic". Because FireMage is right: you can kick people out for differences in playstyle.
But you can't kick someone for underperforming and pointing it out through parses. And I don't think people will sit and wait for you to count things on the Battle Log when they ask you "Hey, where are you getting the information that I'm the one underperforming to such extent?"

You can cite other things "Like that SAM didn't use a single Midare"

[Saraide]

I should probably edit that post since people are clearly not reading it. I said "tangentially rub on the topic". Because FireMage is right: you can kick people out for differences in playstyle.
But you can't kick someone for underperforming and pointing it out through parses. And I don't think people will sit and wait for you to count things on the Battle Log when they ask you "Hey, where are you getting the information that I'm the one underperforming to such extent?"



:shrug:

Why are you asking me this? I was just answering FireMage who wanted evidence to Atelier's statement that it's against the TOS to kick someone from the PF due to parses.

...are you guys even reading the context AT ALL? xD


If they kick you without saying a word, then I suppose you can report it??? I guess???? But I didn't see anything about it, and I personally just move on with my life :P But I'm not Square, and since I haven't found anything about that, then, again: hell if I know xD

It's not even tangentially related. There is no vote dismiss in PF.

[SaberMaxwell]

Why are you asking me this?

Because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just tossing the Terms of Service out like a shield to hide behind, and are actually willing to think. I updated my previous post, but the gist of it is "This is how the game typically operates; when someone is kicked, it's silently" and that "it's a bit naive to expect every elitist to be a moustache twirling monster who tries to rub salt in the wound."

[Ransu]

Even if what you say about FireMage's logs was true, you'd still be wrong. You might not be able to clear week 1 but a few weeks in with a big more gear even a group of greys and greens can clear the dps checks. Just as it is right now.

Who cares about week 1 clears? The entire point is the fact that games with open parses have a tendency to use parses to blacklist certain players. He has 1 good parse in every fight minus p5s where he has some good parses. The other 3 fights are almost entirely grey and a few greens. I personally have no problem carrying a pug that doesn't parse well, but history of other MMO's show clearly that players like him would get blacklisted. He'd struggle to find groups that would allow him to join the party. Its not the end of the world if there's a grey parser in your party because the dps checks are not that strict outside of the final fight of the tier usually, but because parsing is not allowed and there's no in game parse players don't have to worry about that toxic nature.

I've seen far too often in other MMO's where groups post "must do #dps or you will be kicked" and that dps number is always WAY above the required dps to clear.

I like Yoshi's answer in the recent live letter. Basically just leave it alone. If you wanna parse, keep it to yourself. If you're on console then join a discord and ask them to upload your logs. Its not that hard to get your numbers.

[Thaciscokidd]

I've seen far too often in other MMO's where groups post "must do #dps or you will be kicked" and that dps number is always WAY above the required dps to clear.

We still have that problem even without Parsing. People tend to forget the "Skip soar or disband" mentality and its spawns. You still see X number of wipes = disband. People don't need a meter to weed out supposed bad players. You still have people misusing the threat meter as a sign of bad dps. People will still find a way to single out with or without dps meters.

[SannaR]

And that's exactly the problem with parsers: all you see are numbers but not what really happened during the fight, maybe it's not Jimmy holding back.

Maybe the best of the best dd had the high numbers because they stood in every bad stuff and the low dps healer needed to heal them instead of dealing damage.

Maybe the high DPS healer just threw rocks instead of Esuna debuffs.

And don't get me started on addons like DBM: I spent weeks raiding as a pug healer in WOW and no one knew I wasn't using it. They noticed when we got to a boss I've never fought with my guild, so of course I didn't know what to do and suddenly I needed an addon instead of learning the fight?!

You can figure that out though from the use of the one parser people use. It will give you that information on where and how the damage dealt is coming from along with where and how it's being dealt. You can still learn the fights though as unless you use an add on that shows you where to stand you won't know where to go if you and your group is going in blind.

[FireMage]

Who cares about week 1 clears? The entire point is the fact that games with open parses have a tendency to use parses to blacklist certain players. He has 1 good parse in every fight minus p5s where he has some good parses. The other 3 fights are almost entirely grey and a few greens. I personally have no problem carrying a pug that doesn't parse well, but history of other MMO's show clearly that players like him would get blacklisted. He'd struggle to find groups that would allow him to join the party. Its not the end of the world if there's a grey parser in your party because the dps checks are not that strict outside of the final fight of the tier usually, but because parsing is not allowed and there's no in game parse players don't have to worry about that toxic nature.

I've seen far too often in other MMO's where groups post "must do #dps or you will be kicked" and that dps number is always WAY above the required dps to clear.

I like Yoshi's answer in the recent live letter. Basically just leave it alone. If you wanna parse, keep it to yourself. If you're on console then join a discord and ask them to upload your logs. Its not that hard to get your numbers.

Imagine acting like you can carry anyone. I love how you're cherry picking other people's mistakes as mine. Garbage posting as usual

[Ransu]

Imagine acting like you can carry anyone. I love how you're cherry picking other people's mistakes as mine. Garbage posting as usual

I'm not cherry picking anything lol.

You shouldn't talk about kicking out bad apples and wanting to be that type of toxic player that Yoshi-P explicitly wants to avoid by not having a parser in game while leaving your fflogs completely open with mostly mediocre parse logs.

I'm simply pointing out the irony in your posts.