Yoshi-P "definitive" answer on third party tools from today's 14 hour stream

[Azuri]

That is a surprisingly self-reflective take. Nice.
That being said, if we were to allow what you say nobody would ever get into the elite club as you'd be expected to know everything immediately and be perfect which I find kinda self-defeating. Why play a game I'm already perfect in? The middle ground we have right now works well enough. I don't need that LoL BS or whatever similar game.

Also, you're completely leaving out the possibility that a casual/hardcore gamer might come around to the other's perspective. How many have started as a casual only to start raiding? How many had life happen to them and now just want to take in a little bit slower (without completely leaving the raiding scene)? The current system is a good compromise (which doesn't mean I agree with everything, like the state of healers or SE balancing jobs into the ground).

All I am saying is that the current system can and should just move from the weird gray area and be accepted as an objective reality. There should be nothing wrong with looking at someones logs and concluding that you would rather not play with them. For whatever reason. No matter how much Yoshi wants it, he shouldn't dicatate who we party with.

[Maulclaw]

Because of the casualties. If they hit one they have to hit them all. There isn't a Whitelist here. If stuff like parse addons gets hit then stuff like Gshade would also have to be hit.

There are also a good handful of accessibility mods that would have to go too. Its basically Yoshi P saying we hear you but we don't want to deal with how much collateral damage coming down on addons would create.

I hope they stick to this approach. TERA was a very popular game when it came to mods, addons and plugins... and as soon as En Masse Entertainment tried to shut it all down, they paid for it dearly. In the meanwhile we have ZeniMax Online Studios fully supporting fan-made addons and even adding means to their game to further expand its uses.

[Atelier-Bagur]

All I am saying is that the current system can and should just move from the weird gray area and be accepted as an objective reality. There should be nothing wrong with looking at someones logs and concluding that you would rather not play with them. For whatever reason. No matter how much Yoshi wants it, he shouldn't dicatate who we party with.

There is nothing wrong you say but checking logs as a requirement is already wrong. Putting focus on a players damage numbers is not nor should it ever be the be all end all judgement of their skill

[Azuri]

There is nothing wrong you say but checking logs as a requirement is already wrong. Putting focus on a players damage numbers is not nor should it ever be the be all end all judgement of their skill

See, this is why we fundamentally will never agree. And why I think we should just be given the tools to build a nice "wall" between each other so we can both enjoy the game in our separate "worlds".

[Tiramu]

All I am saying is that the current system can and should just move from the weird gray area and be accepted as an objective reality. There should be nothing wrong with looking at someones logs and concluding that you would rather not play with them. For whatever reason. No matter how much Yoshi wants it, he shouldn't dicatate who we party with.

You can use FC's and statics for curating players. What you suggest would gatekeep party finder that locks high end content out only for the most elite players, and shuts the door on casuals, semi-casuals, those who cant invest their lives into a game like many elite raiders want, and leads to outright toxicity and grown adults acting like children.

If you want that as the standard then fine, there are lots of MMO's that are like that, and as we see from WoW the end result of that is harmful both to players and the game itself.

I mean, look at your reply to me. Because I dont like that FFLogs collects data without consent and would prefer XIV to be a game where casuals and hardcore players can find value, you assume Im some toxic casual who wants to piss all over elite raiders. Which is one hell of a jump missing this huge middleground in between.

What I see from your argument is wanting to take the whole cake for yourself and gatekeep all high end content; which is exactly what would happen if PF were to require parse results.

[Atelier-Bagur]

See, this is why we fundamentally will never agree. And why I think we should just be given the tools to build a nice "wall" between each other so we can both enjoy the game in our separate "worlds".

Hey remember that starting armorer questline in ARR that tackled this same exact issue where Blanstyr was being an elitist prick discouraging any novice armorers from ever picking up actual work due to lack of skill? Remember how that worked out for him? Yeah

[Azuri]

You can use FC's and statics for curating players. What you suggest would gatekeep party finder that locks high end content out only for the most elite players, and shuts the door on casuals, semi-casuals, those who cant invest their lives into a game like many elite raiders want, and leads to outright toxicity and grown adults acting like children.

If you want that as the standard then fine, there are lots of MMO's that are like that, and as we see from WoW the end result of that is harmful both to players and the game itself.

What I see from your argument is wanting to take the whole cake for yourself and gatekeep all high end content; which is exactly what would happen if PF were to require parse results.

But where would all the casual players go then? Why won't they make their own PFs to progress the fights together in a chill and fluffly atmosphere where no one ever gets angry at someone being a little slow on the uptake?

[Atelier-Bagur]

But where would all the casual players go then? Why won't they make their own PFs to progress the fights together in a chill and fluffly atmosphere where no one ever gets angry at someone being a little slow on the uptake?

Because they already do. The whole point is that the game doesn't want to overly encourage numbers which is why they don't show that information. If youre being super hardcore about it you're more than welcome to form your own party and have logs to do whatever you wish, it's you and your teams agreeable business over that issue. Just don't force that on everyone else because it's not necessary

[Azuri]

Hey remember that starting armorer questline in ARR that tackled this same exact issue where Blanstyr was being an elitist prick discouraging any novice armorers from ever picking up actual work due to lack of skill? Remember how that worked out for him? Yeah

The fundamental flaw of your logic is that you assume that it is about new raiders vs. established ones. Alas, it is not. There are new players who will gladly join my side of this hypothetical "world". Ones that seek to improve and value performance and derive enjoyment from self improvement. And aren't happy when they are being held back by others. Same as there are long term raiders who will be on your side, raided since Creator and are happy banging their heads against a fight for 6 months because Jimmy is a bit slow on that mechanic and their grandma is just a touch late with the heals sometimes.

[Azuri]

Because they already do. The whole point is that the game doesn't want to overly encourage numbers which is why they don't show that information. If youre being super hardcore about it you're more than welcome to form your own party and have logs to do whatever you wish, it's you and your teams agreeable business over that issue. Just don't force that on everyone else because it's not necessary

So it is your approach that has to be forced on everyone else, then?