Helare shortage in PF: what would bring you back?

[Liam_Harper]

You're smarter than this, which means I can only assume your intent WAS to insult and antagonize.

So:

Why did you ask this question?

You're the one who's insulted and antagonized by having your own words repeated to you. You literally said you want to play the easiest job. And if you're insulted that I stated a fact, don't bother with a paragraph to try and twist it into me being evil and antagonistic, I won't apologize. The cap fits, getting mad at others won't change that.

It's a big problem with healer design and why many players defend Glare and Medica II spam. What they want is a job that is incredibly simple to play, but at the same time allows them to come across as a useful, skilled member of the team. Very little effort and the illusion of reward. Other players who don't really know healer that well will see they survived the encounter and praise their healer.

Good players aren't interested in pretending they did well. They want genuine contribution, max damage, efficient healing, to be the most useful they can be even if people look down on them, call them flithy wannabe dps and praise the crayon eating medica II spammer. They also want an engaging experience that rewards them the better they play. They like playing well, it's what's fun, they aren't there for participation rewards, they want a role to really invest in.
But no, we can't have that because the other half of the playerbase doesn't want their illusionary bubble popped and would rather play pretend at being as useful as the rest of the team.

And yes. WHM is baby's first healer. They only fixed balance issues. It's still a joke to play.

[Renathras]

Based on what you've discussed previously, I'd think SMN and WAR wouldn't really offer you any enjoyment because they almost exclusively focus on DPS.

Bingo. And that's the answer to the question:

I would play them because I still want to play the game that I enjoy and with friends in-game that I like but wouldn't want to play on the un-fun, terrible healer model that you guys want that I would absolutely hate.

So I'd have to switch - as you did to DNC - to something I found at least vaguely fun, but that I didn't really want to play and that wasn't my first choice.

In other words, you want to do to me what has been done to you, which is especially bad since I've already said I feel bad it WAS done to you and want a solution that can please us both. I want to give you 3 out of the 4 healers - a majority of them - so that you can have fun healing, too, just as I'm having fun healing. And as I've noted before, you consistently deny me this same compassion. And you don't even see it as that, because you think your solutions are somehow compromising to give me a little and that I should be happy with that, even though my own position is already a compromise giving you a lot - even though my position is the one of strength here (as all 4 healers currently are closer to my preferred style and I'm willing to give up 3 of them so you can be happy), and I just can't figure out how to get you to see that.

you'd maybe give AST a shot?

I hate AST and always have. Remember when you told me what you like about DNC? Do you remember my reply?

That everything you like about it as a class design is what I hate in class designs. I don't like the RNG, the procs, the activity level. I prefer slow and steady and set rotations. We're like the tortoise and the hare. The thing is, I understand you're the hare and want there to be healers with gameplay for you, while you as the hare seem to think I'm just a little slow but still also a hare that would probably like the same things if forced to give it a try.

I don't like AST's aesthetics, but I really don't like the RNG and that it's just too...busy. It has the highest APM of all the healers and the most oGCD weaves and the highest button count tied with SCH. Given what you know from our conversations - that I dislike all of those things - why would you think I'd go to AST?

For the record, I have all healers at 90. I have played them all in 90 content. AST is the one I only have the Light Mom weapon on, and only because I ran that so many times for the mount that I got it as a drop. That should tell you how little I like the Job. I only leveled it because I wanted to understand its abilities as co-healer in 8 mans and for the Mastering Magic achievements. I really really REALLY don't like AST.


...many people DO love it. And I LOVE that they love it - if nothing else you should be able to see and accept that I want other people to be happy, which is the entire reason I hold the "Four Healers" position in the first place - but it is 100% the exact opposite of what I like in healing and classes in general.

Honestly, I'd pick RDM or PLD instead of SMN and WAR except PLD's are badmouthed if they use Clemency and RDM's if they use Vercure. If those were actually viable, I'd use them instead. Well, and I hate PLD's rotation and that it has too many buttons for controller play. AND more than anything, I hate how PLD downsynicing at all causes your entire rotation to change - remember, I like set in stone, established rotations. Play PLD at 90 - you leave swords into Royal. Play PLD at any level other than 90 - you leave caster phase into Goring. While PLD looks rigid and set on paper, that's ONLY at level 90. GNB and even WAR are far more set in stone and straightforward than it, and they are so even in synced content.

If they want healers to heal more and feel engaged from fulfilling their primary role, than a single, hard hit every 60s or more isn't going to achieve that. Hard hits that simply nuke you into next expansion if 1 of 3 people forgot to push their assigned button do nothing for healers.

This. I 100% agree with this.

SE has decided "challenging healing" means occasional big hits that HAVE TO BE MITIGATED or the squishies get one-shot. That's not a healing check, that's a mitigation check, and is FFXIV following in the WoW Wrath/Cata bad healing model of high spikes of damage to "challenge" healers, which even Blizzard learned was bad. The solution/answer is more consistent, but smaller hits, which can't just be solved with using oGCDs, punctuated occasionally with larger hits that have a bit of scrambling to top everyone up and then are a party responsibility mitigation check.

This thread kind of went off on arguments that are really less about healing which is a shame, but everyone should try to remember that everyone has their own ideas on what healing in this game is supposed to be and if someone doesn't align with the majority's consensus that is okay. At the end of the day we can say what we desire and then its up to the devs to try to deliver. We don't need to be attacking each other over things that boil down to differential preferences. I appreciate everyone's feedback here. See you in other threads

I agree.

That's why I would love to see each of the healers be different, and 1 left as it is today (WHM being the logical choice). This way, everyone wins. Everyone has a healer they can play on that they will then enjoy.

You're the one who's insulted and antagonized by having your own words repeated to you.

Because it's not "my own words".

You literally said you want to play the easiest job.

No, I said those Jobs would be simpler, more straightforward, less convoluted, and more fun - words you left off for some reason.

And if you're insulted that I stated a fact,

Because you didn't state a fact. Moreover...I was responding to ty_taurus not you. Did you not see who was quoted? Did you not see it wasn't you that was quoted? I didn't ask you to apologize - I wasn't even talking to you. The "cap" doesn't fit, and good god, read your post again. If you can't see how you're the attacker/aggressive one in that post, you seriously need to read it again.

What they want is a job that is incredibly simple to play, but at the same time allows them to come across as a useful, skilled member of the team. Very little effort and the illusion of reward.

Have you ever, just for a second, considered asking people what they think instead of telling them what they think?

Good god, your posts aren't as bad as T-Owl, but this one comes close. All 8 people that upvoted this? You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Do you want to know what they want?

THEY.
WANT.
TO.
HEAL.

They don't like DPS buttons, so they want the DPS part of their kit to be as unobtrusive as possible. I know that this is somehow IMPOSSIBLE for you to wrap your head around, but guess what? That's what they want.

They don't want "caries", they don't want "simple Jobs" (they don't mind their healing kits being complex), they don't want "to come across" as useful and skilled while doing very little effort - I've advocated HOW MANY TIMES for the healing to be more demanding in this game? How many? - they want their skill to be in a thing they enjoy, not shoehorned into a thing they do not.

Good lord, can you really not figure this out?

Do you really think everyone who plays MMOs gets a blast of happy chemicals to their brains when they hit DPS buttons but not one does when they press healing buttons?

GOOD players we are, too. You just refuse to see it because demonizing people is more fun to you for whatever reason.

And I've been told in this very thread there is no such thing as "the crayon eating medica II spammer". Why's it okay when you say it but not when I point out it doesn't exist?

I like BarbiEx.

I like her fight because it's technical and there's a lot of healing to do.

It's not simple, but it's fun, because there's actually reason to cast heals.

If you can't figure this out, you can't effectively contribute into any discussion on healers because you genuinely don't get what you're even arguing against or WHO you're arguing against.

[Zolvolt]

This thread kind of went off on arguments that are really less about healing which is a shame, but everyone should try to remember that everyone has their own ideas on what healing in this game is supposed to be and if someone doesn't align with the majority's consensus that is okay. At the end of the day we can say what we desire and then its up to the devs to try to deliver. We don't need to be attacking each other over things that boil down to differential preferences. I appreciate everyone's feedback here. See you in other threads

[ty_taurus]

Bingo. And that's the answer to the question:

I would play them because I still want to play the game that I enjoy and with friends in-game that I like but wouldn't want to play on the un-fun, terrible healer model that you guys want that I would absolutely hate.

So I'd have to switch - as you did to DNC - to something I found at least vaguely fun, but that I didn't really want to play and that wasn't my first choice.

In other words, you want to do to me what has been done to you, which is especially bad since I've already said I feel bad it WAS done to you and want a solution that can please us both.

Keep in mind that literally everyone has tried to explain that they don't want WHM to be a complex or complicated healer, they just want to expand on its tools to give it more variety, including more support for the lily system. East to learn, harder to optimize, is I think a good description that someone else mentioned. BLM is like this on the DPS side. Its rotation is very simple and not particularly complex. It's more just about managing your mobility tools so that you can maintain that uptime, and pay attention to your Astral Fire timer. Not to say that's the exact thing I'd want to see done to WHM, but something that has a rhythm to it. It's easy to get most of your contributions, but offers room to push a little further for the people that want to push beyond that. And something I think could be done, which reflects in the concept I have of an ideal WHM, is that your additional offensive tools build toward your healing resources, making them not about pushing for larger numbers, but for the healing you want to have to use for your allies.

[T-Owl]

Keep in mind that literally everyone has tried to explain that they don't want WHM to be a complex or complicated healer, they just want to expand on its tools to give it more variety, including more support for the lily system. East to learn, harder to optimize, is I think a good description that someone else mentioned. BLM is like this on the DPS side. Its rotation is very simple and not particularly complex. It's more just about managing your mobility tools so that you can maintain that uptime, and pay attention to your Astral Fire timer. Not to say that's the exact thing I'd want to see done to WHM, but something that has a rhythm to it. It's easy to get most of your contributions, but offers room to push a little further for the people that want to push beyond that. And something I think could be done, which reflects in the concept I have of an ideal WHM, is that your additional offensive tools build toward your healing resources, making them not about pushing for larger numbers, but for the healing you want to have to use for your allies.

I mean, I may have gone overboard with my fanfiction of how White Mage could play with it becoming more of a turret healer and so on, but I for example would just love its dps rotation to be basically a dummy Black Mage with a return to an elemental theme. Like, have a dummy stone phase, have a less dps but necessary dummy water phase, have the holy spells more as nukes in the rotation. Or the other way around, dummy holy spells and elemental nukes, though I would prefer the former because I always liked the holy element as this very big boy dps endgame thing in traditional Final Fantasys. Though I also generally feel like even if it has more of a dps rotation, its complexity could be mitigated well by giving White Mage a firm identity as a gcd heavy healer who doesn't weave as much. I mean, if you ask me weaving is kind of harder than just pushing more buttons when no damage comes around. With how bad MO is in this game and also taking controller into account, you have a 1,5 second window to immediately target a friendly target, then a one second window to cast your ogcd, target back to you enemy and push the next glare. With a heavier gcd focus, you have much more time to swap target, heal, swap back, continue dpsing.

[Aword3213]

So why is that relevant on the NA forums when we clearly do?

Isn't this post in Healer Role section of Class & Jobs subforum under English Forum? I speak English too and I like playing healers. Am I at the wrong place?




Here's the NA forum you were refering to. Notice there are also sections for JP worlds, which implies English Forum does not mean it's exlusive to players in NA datacenter. I hope my understanding of English Forum is correct.




Since the topic is about healer shortage in PF, I was curious about why this is not the case in JP side? If the reason of healer shortage is healers being boring and not engaging, why is DPS filling slower than healers in the other side of the world? But it seems I can only get dismissive response here so...do carry on without me.

In addition to the hyperbole and caricatures, this is the main problem with this forum - the abject cherry picking to make their point SOMEhow still valid, even when it's shown to not be valid. The inability of people who just KNOW they MUST be right to recognize when they just MIGHT be wrong

Lesson learned.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

SE has decided "challenging healing" means occasional big hits that HAVE TO BE MITIGATED or the squishies get one-shot. That's not a healing check, that's a mitigation check, and is FFXIV following in the WoW Wrath/Cata bad healing model of high spikes of damage to "challenge" healers, which even Blizzard learned was bad. The solution/answer is more consistent, but smaller hits, which can't just be solved with using oGCDs, punctuated occasionally with larger hits that have a bit of scrambling to top everyone up and then are a party responsibility mitigation check.

100% agree with you. Harder hit require mitigation. What do you have to heal if you are at 100% HP ? Answer is simple...

What would have been a more consistent healer check would be less harder initial hit, but harder DoT on Raid Wide damage. Like the Raid wide on P7S for exemple that apply a DoT on everyone. Tank buster on this tier can also be considered like a Healer and mitigation check, because they hit really hard and leave a powerful DoT. DRK and GNB who got the less "healing abilities" for this kind of TB can be in pain, so they require a good initial Mitigation in order to not be overcome by the DoT's Tick.

Back in WOTLK, all the healers were doing their primary job : Healing. Their damage output was so meaningless that they'd better keep mana as much as possible to heal instead. But Square Enix wish Healers to act differently in here, just like other game will do it differently.

And for what I've seen of this little drama story going on. People must remember that the actual "Design" of healer is to do Damage (as much as possible) while healing the team when it's necessary. This is actual and will probably not change anytime soon.

Square Enix is unlikely to do any change that's going to be an "Elite class" that require 614578214635 Buttons to press to heal/DPS.

Like Renathras said, and I'm completely with him on this one : Classes (not only WHM) must be less convoluted, and more fun (I didn't take "More straightforward", you'll see why in a minute)

Some classes are "locked" behind some skills making them extremely rigid to play. It was the case not long ago with the SAM and the unpopular retirement of Kaiten. That one skill was the button to press before any Iaijutsu you launch, making it hard for the dev to do improvement with that one rock that wasn't moving. That was an exemple of "Convulated Class"

I don't feel that the WHM is locked in the way to play it. You don't have any obligation to use your lily's for the blood one, because it's DPS neutral in the end for exemple (in the case you heal with oGCD exclusively of course). The only reason you will use Lily over any other heal is this : No mana cost, No cast time, and DPS Neutral because of the Blood Lily. The only exception would be for "Assize" aka the only DPS oGCD Button that the white mage has (This one is almost unleashed on CD because of his high potency.). Other than that, I think the white mage is probably the easiest healer to use as a pure healer (SCH/SGE are on a different categorie).

AST, on the other hand, need to predict when to place the star (because it takes 10 sec to be at full power). Timing correctly Macrocosm, placing card on the right role, trying to get 3 different symbole as much as possible etc etc... Which make the AST more complicated than the WHM.

Playing an "easy" class doesn't mean you are a bad player. You can play an Easy class and be completely awful on it, while being amazing on a class that's more complex. Everybody got a different understanding of "how the jobs works". In fact, it works the same for all people, but they can't apprehand it the same way.

Each player is different, because we are all human. Each player will always find a classes that they like because they find it simple. I'm not like Renathras, he play heal main, and I play DPS main. Do I need to trash him, disrespect his idea on healer ? Absolutely not. Renathras doesn't like PLD's Rotation, but I do up to a certain point. That's what we call "Tastes and Colors", and we don't discuss that here. He has the right to not like how a job is, just like all people got it. But he also has the right to do the opposite.

What Square Enix will do ? Make classes accessible to the bigger number. They won't fit to just "one specific player" that complains.

[ty_taurus]

Some classes are "locked" behind some skills making them extremely rigid to play. It was the case not long ago with the SAM and the unpopular retirement of Kaiten. That one skill was the button to press before any Iaijutsu you launch, making it hard for the dev to do improvement with that one rock that wasn't moving. That was an exemple of "Convulated Class".

Here's my view on Kaiten, which is relevant to discuss how the devs approach changes. So the argument against Kaiten is that it will make it difficult to add to SAM in the future, and potentially might class with what the combat design team is planning for the next expansion. Alright, if it's believed that Kaiten is problematic in this way, then I can respect that; however, why remove it now and not replace it with anything if the problems it creates is for something we won't have access to until the future (presumably 7.0)? Why not just leave it until you're ready to push that SAM update in the next expansion? They did this with MNK in ShB--killing its Greased Lightning preemptively because it didn't fit what they wanted to accomplish with MNK moving forward, but by not replacing it with anything, it make the job feel incomplete. I don't think this is a healthy way to approach changes. It's fine if you feel something needs to be changed, but just wait till you're able to publish the full changes rather than just leaving SAM's Kenki gauge in shambles for roughly 2 years.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Here's my view on Kaiten, which is relevant to discuss how the devs approach changes. So the argument against Kaiten is that it will make it difficult to add to SAM in the future, and potentially might class with what the combat design team is planning for the next expansion. Alright, if it's believed that Kaiten is problematic in this way, then I can respect that; however, why remove it now and not replace it with anything if the problems it creates is for something we won't have access to until the future (presumably 7.0)? Why not just leave it until you're ready to push that SAM update in the next expansion? They did this with MNK in ShB--killing its Greased Lightning preemptively because it didn't fit what they wanted to accomplish with MNK moving forward, but by not replacing it with anything, it make the job feel incomplete. I don't think this is a healthy way to approach changes. It's fine if you feel something needs to be changed, but just wait till you're able to publish the full changes rather than just leaving SAM's Kenki gauge in shambles for roughly 2 years.

On your first question : I'm not a dev, so I don't know why. I don't have an answer to this question, but only actual facts.

Second question : Maybe to see how it play without it and with the new "Crit/DH" modification they did. But you are right, they could've just leave it that way and wait for 7.0.

Like I said on an other post : Dev may do change according to "different wall" they encounter.

For the Samourai, it was Kaiten like I said earlier, but why removing that now, I have no idea. That's the "Convulated Wall". (Classes got a rigid play because of one button. One other exemple was Dark Arts in the SB era)

For the upcoming change for the DRG ? Because they are heavy in oGCD, like really Heavy + 10 attack combo on 7 buttons. That's a lot. Making addition to that will be difficult. That's the "Filled up Wall" (Classe have no room for improving)

For the AST ? Now that's interessting... as I said before, AST is mcuh more complex than a WHM. I even think that the gap is really gigantic in term of skill required to output DPS equal to a WHM or even greater. Maybe they will rework it to be less complex. That's the "Complexity Wall" (Adding something else to this will make the classes got too much to manage at the same time)

[ASkellington]

Ah yes, that's the other thing I didn't add in my post: proper heal checks.

Not mitigation checks. HEAL CHECKS.

And no, "heal to full or die" is not a proper heal check. I swear SE has no idea wtf those are.