General Healer Discussion [The Echo Chamber]

[flowerfairy]

This would, one can hope, make them more open to compromise positions (like the "leave WHM alone and change the others" - a position even Misshapen Chair has suggested) instead of their current hardline positions.

You often suggest that WHM should be the easy healer, just like WAR is the easy tank, and I agree with that. But WAR, while still being straightforward, still has little nuances to optimize as much damage as possible. Beast gauge is easy to use but you still have to avoid overcap and pay attention to both your IR cooldown and the amount you have left so you can squeeze as much Fell Cleaves into raid buffs, as well as using Infuriate at the right time and checking your buff timer so you can refresh it the moment it comes off by building up your combo progression. You don't have to do any of this to properly play WAR, but it's still fun to manage. This can still be considered an easy job to pick up.

Glarespam is not easy, it's not very easy, it's not extremely easy, it's not unbelievably easy, it's not impossibly easy.
It's nothing. It's genuinely nothing of a rotation. The only thing to manage is making sure you press a lily spell before it overcaps. That's it.

I'm not asking for a complex million-button rotation, but please, literally anything more than that. Fluid Aura oGCD, a Dia chance to proc instant cast Aero III, an instant cast Water spell for movement I saw somewhere, ANYTHING more than Glare Dia Misery please.

[ty_taurus]

The WHM idea is really cool. AST was a little hard to follow without a flowchart but the cards sound fun to use. I like the MP management on both and the risk of blowing too much on Tempest/Celestial Fate can run you dry, honestly I want resource management in general to come back for all jobs with more impact on their gameplay. No more 120s burst gameplay please.

Currently, those theorycrafts do work into the 2 minute burst window. Now, I would want to see that changed, but I don't really know how I'd approach it on a macro level other than probably going back to the 1, 2, 3, 6 burst window system. So I don't really want to try and address that in my theorycrafting right now, but I would certainly see some of the tools drift a little in cooldowns to compliment whatever direction we could go away from the 2 minutes. I also wanna add in Diurnal and Nocturnal stances back. I just didn't wanna bother with looking up the old Nocturnal values for reference when I wrote that up, lol. I do also wanna do updated takes on my thoughts on SCH and SGE too, but yeah, anything that plays into the 2 minute window I'd be happy to change if I ever wanted to think about how to rework it on a macro scale.

[Sunhwapark]

Loved the idea for Thin Air granting the next spell to be instant cast, I'd be down for that.

In addition to the mp recovery stuff, I'd like it if we were also given back offensive debuffs on bosses again please. (Disable/Virus/Addle)

WHM went from promising honor student rough around the edges to sliding downhill into skeletal crack addict.

Just wanted to say that this is the greatest summary of WHM's stormblood experience I've ever read.

[ty_taurus]

Loved the idea for Thin Air granting the next spell to be instant cast, I'd be down for that.

In addition to the mp recovery stuff, I'd like it if we were also given back offensive debuffs on bosses again please. (Disable/Virus/Addle)



Just wanted to say that this is the greatest summary of WHM's stormblood experience I've ever read.

What's really nice about switching Thin Air to instant cast and moving the MP management to an offensive spell is it gives WM a really unique niche as a powerful raiser. Ablution -> Thin Air -> Raise gives you a raise at 1200 MP, a second raise at 2400, then you could use a second Ablution if you have it and Swiftcast to get a third raise for 1200 MP, 3 instant cast raises at the MP cost of 2 potentially, which helps WHM carve itself a stronger identity as the safe healer.

[Tiramu]

I dont think there is anything wrong with the healing toolkits of either of the healers I play (WHM and SCH). Its the nature of the beast that healing will sway from easy to hard depending on the group. Its a situational role, and I value intuitiveness over convolution.

Making healing more complicated would be overlooking the core problem the jobs have - lack of DPS options in a game where healing is supposed to weave between healing and damage. You also have to consider that the toolkit needs to perform even in poor groups.

Making healing itself more complex would really need to see XIV go pure, with enimity, more steady damage in battles, and healers that focus on healing only. So thats a non starter.

Where both WHM and SCH lack are with DPS options, especially when the group is good. I want to see a wider selection of offensive options with real rotations, and as Ive said in the other thread, a BLM style pendulum would be great where you could sacrifice healing for damage and vice versa.

[Tiramu]

Lets be real, with how widespread high dps uptime is on all levels of content facing the problem of being stuck to spamming 1 button for most of any given content is probably an issue a high percentage of healer players face and when it comes to casuals, I don't think we can assume them caring much about how classes play on a technical level because they will just perform based on gut feeling and focus more on aesthetics. If White Mage would have the hardest dps rotation of all healers in this game, it probably would still be the most popular healer because its the iconic one which you can pick up at level 1. Hell, it may even end up giving us a higher quality of healers at high levels, because newbies get used to it.

And the leave White Mage alone position is inheritly flawed because one point of critic is already how much the noob healer identity is already crippling White Mage.

I largely agree, its the quintessential FF healer so absolutely needs to be accessible. But that doesnt mean it cant have a high ceiling; and DPS complexity is where that ceiling could come in to play

[Semirhage]

Oh, I don't disagree.

I'm more pointing out that this forum is kind of an echo chamber. The people here believing it represents the entire community or is the only mainstream view - a weird kind of appeal to authority/appeal to consensus fallacy - need to stop doing that.

There he goes again, ignoring actual arguments in favor of accusing everyone in here of his favorite "fallacy" of the week.

I don't think "everyone" believes what I do. In fact, I don't care if Misshapen Chair thinks WHM "deserves" to be sucky and boring. I disagree with that view. I don't care if his viewers disagree with me. In fact, "suggesting" that we all head over to Reddit or Youtube to learn what the "community consensus" is (i.e. the people who agree with you) is the *actual* appeal to authority/consensus fallacy. I don't care what the consensus thinks. Most people are stupid, so "the majority agrees with it" doesn't make an argument compelling to me.

Now- if you're telling me that Square Enix will likely pick a direction based on said consensus? You got me there. I don't think the consensus view on WHM being "fun" is anything but gibberish, but you WHM-enjoyers can keep singing the praises of Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare to your hearts' content. I certainly can't stop you.

[Renathras]

There he goes again, ignoring actual arguments in favor of accusing everyone in here of his favorite "fallacy" of the week.

There she goes again, ignoring actual arguments in favor of accusing Ren of her favorite insult of the week and misrepresenting his posts to the point of both lying and insult.

And for the record, I'm not the one appealing to consensus. Folks you agree with are. I'm pointing out that consensus is likely not what you think it is.

If only, for ONE post, you could actually be a truthful and rational person. Just for one. You might realize, for example, no one is singing the praises of Glare and nothing else. I've even pointed this out over and over to you, specifically, and got told I was arguing against something people weren't saying (pressing one button and literally nothing else), yet you do it over and over. You can't help yourself.

In the end, because you and those like you won't compromise, you get nothing.

.

You often suggest that WHM should be the easy healer, just like WAR is the easy tank, and I agree with that. But...

Here's the thing,iIf we actually compare them, WHM has ABOUT as much going on as WAR does, both in terms of buttons (if you consider Upheaval and Orogeny are effectively Assize as they share a CD so you only use one in single target or aoe scenarios) and that it has a 1-2- before its Glare and Dia, and a 1- before its Holy. Everything you just said about WAR saying it was fine, I can say about WHM:

Lilies are easy to use, but you still have to avoid overcap and pay attention to the amount you have left and how much Blood Lily you've accumulated so you can fit Miseries into raid buffs (and also not overcap the Blood Lily), as well as using Presence of Mind at the right time and checking your Dia timer so you can refresh it at the right time without overcapping it or overwriting it too soon (something Storm's Eye is actually more flexible with since you can stack it to 60 sec). You don't have to do any of this to properly play WHM, but it's still fun to manage.

Heavy Swing - Maim - Storm's Path is Glare with extra busywork that adds nothing to the experience. Or, put another way, when was the last time you seriously messed up the 1-2 in your 1-2-3 rotation? I can count the instances of doing that on probably one hand.

I don't want Fluid Aura (which at this point is thematically pointless for WHM AND would just be a second Assize taking up an additional hotbar space for no good reason) OR Aero 3. Though I wouldn't mind a thundercloud-like proc for Dia, the problem is healers don't work well with proc based effects when things get busy, and as someone said earlier, that only sounds fun until people seeing wild swings in their parses based on weather they got good or bad RNG on the procs.

The point is that WHM is already very similar to WAR - as it is - but it doesn't matter much since the Devs are likely to just continue what they're doing since the majority of the community seems to like easier healers and the people that don't won't actually compromise on the point.

[ty_taurus]

Added a page for SGE if anyone's interested. I had a lot of fun making that revamping some of my older ideas and fixing problem areas.

[Sebazy]

Sometimes, the best thing to do in an echo chamber is try to NOT be an echo chamber. One way is to look outside the chamber and see if your collective views match those of the outside world. For one example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX-cBCA7114

Is his view any better though?

Case in point, 2:50 - Regarding adding a DPS rotation: 'It'll create a situation where doing the current raid tier becomes nigh impossible'. Really? Looks like he made his mind up and made a video to try and justify it. Where's the rational behind this statement?

His thoughts on who is complaining seems flawed to me as well. The biggest source of discord seems to be players that have stepped up to Savage/ultimate and then step back down to more casual content such as 24 mans and Extremes and promptly realise little there is to do because there's so little damage coming in.

Lastly, he doesn't seem to realise how inconsistent content is within a given tier. Barb's a pretty solid Extreme, meanwhile Zodiark was arguably one of the worst. And whilst this Savage tier is a great healer check from what I hear (And it's not the first, we've had fights such as Godka in the past that were also excellent fun), they need to be weighed alongside dull car crashes such as E8S.

Seems to me like we're just looking from one echo chamber into another. There's no grass there either.