Helare shortage in PF: what would bring you back?

[T-Owl]

This is true.

Which is why even I'm an advocate of changing SCH, AST, and SGE filler rotations.

I don't think anyone is really against that right now. The main contention is between people wanting ALL the healers changed/made more complex (the majority position here and on FFXIV Discussion Reddit) vs the people wanting one or even two (always WHM, sometimes SGE is mentioned as the barrier healer equivalent) kept "simple". (Which is amusing to me since SGE is the healer the most players in surveys say they don't understand)

That's really the only sticking point right now - that some people want to make ALL the healers more complex while others want to make SOME of the healers more complex so that they're all distinct in their filler while leaving one or two as they are today, which would also be distinct/diversity at that point. If SCH had Bio, Miasma, Miasma 2, Fester, Bane, and Shadow Flare, and if AST had a 1-2-3 rotation, then WHM and SGE remaining exactly as they are today would already be distinct, and SCH/AST would be distinct as well. This would allow players choice in how much (or how little) they want to engage with DPS rotations on their healers, and which kind.

And people keep disagreeing with you because on of the complaints people have about White Mage right now is that its restrained by its identity of being the baby healer which doesn't allow for much complexities in its toolkit and if your idea would come true, it would be even worse off if other healer classes get expanded in terms of their dps toolkit while other classes remain stagnant, you would see WHM be permanently locked out of the PF. And again, you have not brought a single argument in favor of why WHM should be restricted to the no skill healer outside of the fact that you would dropp out of the game if it forces you to press more than one button in your rotation, which is not an argument. The only argument I saw you using was misrepresenting holy priests in WoW by presenting us footage from a bad holy Priest. Especially since you already expressed that you barely even play current tier Savage, so this change wouldn't even affect you, as nobody can penalize you for still playing a 1 button rotation in casual gameplay modes and outdated content.

And due to WHM being more GCD heavy than other healers, it would be even easier to perform a simple dps rotation on it, because you don't have to deal with weaving as much while casting heals inbetween dps. I would argue being reliant on ogcd heals is more of a difficulty than performing a simplified dps rotation because it in either cases forces you to target, heal and switch target back inside a 1 second window, while gcd healing gives you a window of 2,5 seconds to select a target, heal it and then refreshes to another 2,5 second window of switching back to the enemy and attack it.

[AmiableApkallu]

Which is why even I'm an advocate of changing SCH, AST, and SGE filler rotations.

And people keep disagreeing with you because on of the complaints people have about White Mage right now is that its restrained by its identity of being the baby healer which doesn't allow for much complexities in its toolkit

The way I think of it: There is absolutely no reason why WHM, as one of the more iconic jobs of Final Fantasy, should be the "baby" healer. In terms of job design, it should on the same level as, say, BLM: Easy enough to play to get through the MSQ and normal mode content, but with enough "complexity" to give you something to strive for should you wish to challenge yourself or engage with more challenging content.

[T-Owl]

The way I think of it: There is absolutely no reason why WHM, as one of the more iconic jobs of Final Fantasy, should be the "baby" healer. In terms of job design, it should on the same level as, say, BLM: Easy enough to play to get through the MSQ, but with enough "complexity" to give you something to strive for should you wish to challenge yourself or engage with more challenging content.

Its basically what I'm saying, I would like it to be the slow and hard hitting gcd intensive healer, which probably would make it easier to get into, because healing on the gcd is easier than healing on weave in heals in a 1 second window.

[Renathras]

And people keep disagreeing with you because....

No.

People here keep disagreeing because they want all the healing Jobs made more complex so they wouldn't be disproven about people wanting complex DPS kits when the majority pick WHM anyway showing the community actually prefers simpler DPS kits. And there are also people that want more complex kits but want to be able to play any healing Job (aesthetics or just liking them all) and want them all to be to their liking, regardless of what this does to the rest of the players who dislike that.

you would see WHM be permanently locked out of the PF.

No, we wouldn't. As long as the damage and healing output (the essential duties of a healer) are comparable between all healers, this would never happen. The only time Jobs are locked out of PF are when they're doing significantly less damage than their role counterparts. If WHM is doing the same damage with Glarespam that SCH is juggling 5 DoTs, then neither will be blacklisted.

And again, you have not brought a single argument in favor of why WHM

I've brought up quite a few, you just keep ignoring them. I'll bring them up again when you stop ignoring them. I'm not going to write you another book explaining it for you to just reply two posts down that I haven't given "a single argument".

The only argument I saw you using was misrepresenting holy priests in WoW by presenting us footage from a bad holy Priest.

Why do you openly lie? Like seriously, why do you so verifiably lie?

As I said there - in directly reply to you making this accusation once already - I wasn't drawing any comparison at the time about that. I've talked on other occasions about it, and noted that Resto Druid subspec Balance (which is the raid spec, Feral subspec is for 5 mans) and Holy Priest speced for raids and not 5 mans do play a lot more like WHM today and have somewhat similar priority systems. But that wasn't the argument being made in the post you're talking about. I even said so directly to you at the time. You can't read one of my posts, make an accusation, then ignore the explanation and maintain any credibility.

Especially since you already expressed that you barely even play current tier Savage,

Except I do play current tier Savage, and I also extensively play Extremes. So this change would, yes, affect me.

This is yet another untruth you keep saying and I've already disproven (both for me specifically and for the community more generally) and even noted the reason behind it when you exposed it once as you didn't want people being able to clear content you think of as yours.

[QUOTTE]And due to WHM being more GCD heavy than other healers,[/QUOTE]

WHM using GCDs to heal is the reason it needs LESS damage focused GCDs not more, since it already is nukespamming the least of all the healers. Where AST has only Malific, WHM has Solace, Rapture, and Misery to break up their Glarespam.

But as someone said in the echo chamber thread: It doesn't even matter what we think. It matters what Yoshi P and the Devs want to do. And right now, staying the course and having all healers simple - because you folks won't be happy if SOME are but others are made more complex - is the solution they've chosen. And while I think it's not the best one, I like it better than yours, so I'll support it over yours if you're so dead set on rejecting the actual compromise position.

The way I think of it: There is absolutely no reason why WHM, as one of the more iconic jobs of Final Fantasy, should be the "baby" healer. In terms of job design, it should on the same level as, say, BLM: Easy enough to play to get through the MSQ and normal mode content, but with enough "complexity" to give you something to strive for should you wish to challenge yourself or engage with more challenging content.

It's not a "baby" healer.

Things being straightforward, understandable, and functional isn't "baby". It's efficient, economical, and smart design.

.

Here's a survey that's interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...iest_how_does/

The caveat here is that this is of the Chinese playerbase (the max age is 35; culturally, there's an aversion to gaming as an adult, so in a global or Western survey, we'd expect this to be more generalized), but it's interesting seeing which Jobs are the more and least favorite, and how this changes based on gender and age. In general, males prefer tanks and melees and females prefer DNC, RDM, and healers, and younger players prefer more active and complex/hyper Jobs while older players are more content with more simple, effective, and functional Jobs. It would be interesting to see a similar survey from a more worldwide and/or Western audience, but I suspect the general trends would hold.

What we do know from the Lucky Bancho numbers is that, worldwide, players prefer the simpler Jobs and the more complex are the least played: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...b_populations/

[T-Owl]

No.

So you basicalyl want to perform on a lower level than anyone else in the raid while reaping the same rewards, so you basically just want to leech of free carries and participate in content you yourself admitted to usually not being competent enough for, as performing any dps rotation no matter how simple would overwhelm you. I mean, you said it yourself, you would stop playing healers if healers would be expected to perform on the same level as anyone else, which they right now don't do.

And to be honest, I will say it here for maybe the devs to read, I'm already planning to switch back to DF once the pre-patch hits over Yoshi-P and his devs atrocious class design. FF14 has fun classes and I really enjoy their aesthetics and the playstyle of many of them, but when it comes to healers especially, SE is engaging in class design far below industry standarts. They keep on ruining jobs that I like, Dark Knight was my favorite job in the game in SB and I can't enjoy it anymore and healers are so atrociously designed that I was fully burned out of the game and stopped playing after a few months of playing one as a main, after having been a long time holy Paladin main in WoW.

[Renathras]

The best we can hope for is more dps buttons which they probably won’t do due to “balancing issues” and “we don’t want to put pressure on healers to decide between healing or doing a dps rotation”. Wow manages it, not sure why 14 couldn’t?

This is said a lot, but unlikely true. Square has shown they don't care about balance for old fights. Moreover, they already did this twice - changing fight designs from ARR to HW, then again from SB to ShB. So it's not an either-or or a "they can't change the old so they won't change the new" situation. At least, the game's history to date says otherwise.

So you basicalyl want to perform on a lower level than anyone else in the raid

No.

This is you, yet again, being a butt.

I mean, you said it yourself, you would stop playing healers if healers

...and would play WAR or SMN instead SINCE THEY ARE EASIER.

God daum, if you spent as much time actually reading my posts as you do lying about them, it would cut down like 50% of the off topic posts in this forum!

And to be honest, I will say it here for maybe the devs to read, I'm already planning to switch back to DF once the pre-patch hits over Yoshi-P and his devs atrocious class design.

So me saying I'll quit healing is meaningless, but you saying you'll quit has some kind of merit? Consistency, my dude!

[ty_taurus]

...and would play WAR or SMN instead SINCE THEY ARE EASIER.

Does it matter which job you play then if the goal is just to play whatever is the easiest job?

[Renathras]

Does it matter which job you play then if the goal is just to play whatever is the easiest job?

Why did you ask this question?

You know it's a question that can only generate ill will, is antagonistic, that you're misrepresenting to the point of insult, and worse, that you already know the answer to: By your own admission, you've swapped to playing DNC as it's more to your liking, and yet, you still are here on the healer forums talking about healer Jobs. Meaning you already know the answer to this question, as you've even said it before. You're smarter than this, which means I can only assume your intent WAS to insult and antagonize.

So:

Why did you ask this question?

.

EDIT:

The WHM kit might be "efficient, economical, and smart", but I wouldn't call it "fun."

I would - and do - which is why it's my main Job.

[ty_taurus]

Why did you ask this question?

You know it's a question that can only generate ill will, is antagonistic, that you're misrepresenting to the point of insult, and worse, that you already know the answer to: By your own admission, you've swapped to playing DNC as it's more to your liking, and yet, you still are here on the healer forums talking about healer Jobs. Meaning you already know the answer to this question, as you've even said it before. You're smarter than this, which means I can only assume your intent WAS to insult and antagonize.

So:

Why did you ask this question?

It wasn't meant to be an insult or antagonizing, I was just confused by the statement. Based on what you've discussed previously, I'd think SMN and WAR wouldn't really offer you any enjoyment because they almost exclusively focus on DPS. I mean I suppose you could prioritize being an off tank as a WAR and using Nascent Flash on cooldown on the main tank, but SMN doesn't have any real control over its healing other than 1 single target regen once per 2 minutes during Phoenix's phase. It seemed counterintuitive to how you described what you look for in a job. I assumed if WHM did evolve into a complex job, you'd maybe give AST a shot? Or would stick through it potentially depending on the state of the other healers since, at the end of the day, they still would be obligated to heal consistently enough.

[T-Owl]

No.

This is you, yet again, being a butt.

You know, expressing yourself rigidly in the embarassing believe that you are witty doesn't make me not report you for insulting me, so you can just say "asshole" and drop the cutesy nicey act, we know that you are the kind of person who loves to be a helpful caring nuturing healer who starts threatening people if things don't go your way.

And I mean, what else is it? You want a job that has less weaving than any other healing involved in its healing style while having a 1 button rotation and perform competetively. That sounds like you feel entitled to get a raiding spot while having to perform less than anyone else in the team.

...and would play WAR or SMN instead SINCE THEY ARE EASIER.

God daum, if you spent as much time actually reading my posts as you do lying about them, it would cut down like 50% of the off topic posts in this forum!

Can you stop caps? It makes you come off as unhinged. And that is your gotcha? That I don't care enough about you after you threatened me and generally creat the impression of an unsafe to be around invididual what exactly you said? I mean, my point stands, the moment healers would become compatible in challenge and skill ceiling to any other role, you would immediately jump to the next most easy class you can see. Have you ever considered that if the idea of having to press more than one button to dps in a game with so little and highly precitable healing uptime, you maybe don't enjoy healing so much?

So me saying I'll quit healing is meaningless, but you saying you'll quit has some kind of merit? Consistency, my dude!

I'm still not a guy, so don't assume. And probably no, but I'm just consequent in my dissatisfaction of FF14s Job Design which is detoriating for years now and I hope that I may inspire other peoples here to give WoW a shot for healing gameplay.

Like, the expansion Dragonflight is getting released at the end of november, so the pre-patch should hit soon where people can try out the new healer Blizzard is releasing, which seems pretty dope. Its a dragon-themed race/class designed to be a mid ranged healer who utilizes a mix of green nature focussed healing but also time magic to heal the party and it has skills like a healing fire and flying over an area while healing and a cool gimmick where its generic dps filler also doubles as a healing spell. Haven't played it yet but from steams, it just looks super fun and much more innovative and fresh than Sage did.