What would the path be had you been able to contain the light?

[Lurina]

That was very helpful.

As expected Emet Selch was quite genuine in his belief in us which lead to my question.

Since he said a ‘path of lesser tragedy’ could be found it suggests that he must have at least an inkling of an idea, had the WoL been able to contain the light it would be proof that you can reach near equal status to an unsundered without being fully rejoined. (though we already had that seen when zenos in a weaker body and artificial echo was able to make elidibus run away)

Had this been possible, how could it be used to achieve the ascian goals I wonder, let’s say you can contain the light and prove you are his near equal, that doesnt really reveal a new path, it just shows you are extremely capable and Emet clearly had in mind that if the WoL can contain the light, a common ground can be reached, but what could that common ground be?

I've said this before, but I think the most critical thing to understand about Emet in Shadowbringers is that he's not behaving rationally. During the expansion, he constantly makes contradictory statements about his own beliefs and even his goals - originally he alludes to the "path of lesser tragedy" being about avoiding the Rejoinings, but by the time you're going to confront Vauthry and it seems as though he might actually have to reckon with being proven wrong, he's trying hard to persuade you they would actually be a good thing and that you and the people you love don't have to suffer for them to happen. He also pivots wildly between how much sympathy he has to the Sundered, sometimes calling them subhuman beings and seeming enraged by the very fact they exist, and at other times regarding them affectionately. It's never explicit outside of the Tales Of stories, but he's obviously wracked with self-loathing as a result of his actions, but also feels compelled out of duty to his people to keep pushing forward. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place - he wants more than anything to stop, but can't bring himself to do so.

I think Emet probably toyed with the idea of trying to work with the people of the Source in the same regard as Varis proposed to bring about further Rejoinings, and even with abandoning the plan altogether... But ultimately, his "test" is more for him than for you. It's a way to resolve the dissonance tormenting him; either his belief in the inferiority of the Sundered is validated and he regains the fortitude to continue with his plans, or his ability to continue with them as they are is compromised because his ability to lie to himself about the Sundered's inferiority is permanently spoiled, and he's 'set free' from his burden.

But in the end, I don't feel Emet would have been capable of fully accepting either of these outcomes, which is why - like Yoshi-P suggests - that even when you do contain the light, he chooses to escalate and stake everything on a final battle where he can die heroically fighting for the people he loves. Because the harsh truth is that there is no 'path of lesser tragedy' where both the Sundered and Unsundered can be wholly saved. It's kill or be killed.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but I think the the plot of ShB ultimately pivots on Emet hitting his breaking point and his subsequent magical thinking more than anything else.

[Cleretic]

I've said this before, but I think the most critical thing to understand about Emet in Shadowbringers is that he's not behaving rationally. During the expansion, he constantly makes contradictory statements about his own beliefs and even his goals - originally he alludes to the "path of lesser tragedy" being about avoiding the Rejoinings, but by the time you're going to confront Vauthry and it seems as though he might actually have to reckon with being proven wrong, he's trying hard to persuade you they would actually be a good thing and that you and the people you love don't have to suffer for them to happen. He also pivots wildly between how much sympathy he has to the Sundered, sometimes calling them subhuman beings and seeming enraged by the very fact they exist, and at other times regarding them affectionately. It's never explicit outside of the Tales Of stories, but he's obviously wracked with self-loathing as a result of his actions, but also feels compelled out of duty to his people to keep pushing forward. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place - he wants more than anything to stop, but can't bring himself to do so.

Yeah, a big thing with Shadowbringers Emet is that while he's often truthful, he's not always honest, and as a result he spends a lot of the expansion subtly twisting his arguments and perspective to do whatever he's trying to achieve in that scene, which is usually just trying to make the Scions question their preconceptions and convictions. This makes it pretty hard to take him at his word with regards to any of his actual plans, a lot of what he said about it was subtly contradictory and lacking in detail... because his goal wasn't consistency or specificity, it was to make you think he had a point.

The Ascians as a whole, and Emet specifically, gain a lot from the fact their plan never faced the scrutiny of actually having to happen on-screen. It's very unclear how much he actually cares about the sundered, if they really think this is a kindness to anyone except their own people, how they deal with the Thirteenth, what even happens after the final Rejoining, how many sacrifices have to happen to make all this finish, if the Amaurot they bring back is really ever the same, if they can ever be trusted to not keep sacrificing... but the Ascians never actually had to answer those questions, because they all died before then, so their plan remains an unquestioned theoretical. That's similarly true of Emet's 'test' to us; it doesn't matter what he would've done if he was wrong and we 'passed' his arbitrary test, because we didn't.

[Lurina]

Yeah, a big thing with Shadowbringers Emet is that while he's often truthful, he's not always honest, and as a result he spends a lot of the expansion subtly twisting his arguments and perspective to do whatever he's trying to achieve in that scene, which is usually just trying to make the Scions question their preconceptions and convictions. This makes it pretty hard to take him at his word with regards to any of his actual plans, a lot of what he said about it was subtly contradictory and lacking in detail... because his goal wasn't consistency or specificity, it was to make you think he had a point.

I think this is also a little bit of a mischaracterization. Emet constantly says things that jeopardize his attempts to befriend and/or manipulate the Scions, snapping and getting hostile just as they're starting to lower their guard and trust him (relatively), the best example being when he drops the "moral relativity" line. The Scions are still feeling a bit more positive towards him because of his saving Y'shtola, and are the point where they're willing to at least hear him out and entertain empathizing with his motive, but he spoils it and sours the atmosphere to no gain.

He's not some master manipulator, at least not at that point. He's contradictory because he can't control his own emotions and fundamentally has no idea what he even wants.

[Vyrerus]

He's not some master manipulator, at least not at that point. He's contradictory because he can't control his own emotions and fundamentally has no idea what he even wants.

He's just an old man, cranky after being woken up too soon from his nap.

Does make me wonder if this is the first time he's been woken up after completing one of his duties, and that's why he's not handling it well at all.

[SannaR]

He's just an old man, cranky after being woken up too soon from his nap.

Does make me wonder if this is the first time he's been woken up after completing one of his duties, and that's why he's not handling it well at all.

Woken up soon after he completed one of his duties? Probably. As I'm going to assume he didn't have a hand in any of the 6th rejoining. None of the three nations that played a hand in that calamity at least on the source seem to fit his style. Either with how they operate or their aesthetics. That and the side story made it seem that he was only awoken when the other two +/- any sundered couldn't work with whatever nation(s) the current civilization was giving them to work with. But yes you could definitely see his being awoken by Elidibus as someone who'd just been napping for five minutes before being rudely woken up by someone or their pet.

[RyuDragnier]

I think this is also a little bit of a mischaracterization. Emet constantly says things that jeopardize his attempts to befriend and/or manipulate the Scions, snapping and getting hostile just as they're starting to lower their guard and trust him (relatively), the best example being when he drops the "moral relativity" line. The Scions are still feeling a bit more positive towards him because of his saving Y'shtola, and are the point where they're willing to at least hear him out and entertain empathizing with his motive, but he spoils it and sours the atmosphere to no gain.

He's not some master manipulator, at least not at that point. He's contradictory because he can't control his own emotions and fundamentally has no idea what he even wants.

I think this plays into why the playerbase likes Emet so much. He's a deep and complex character, and is conflicted. He got the most human treatment out of all of the Ascians, and made him feel like somebody you can sympathize with easily. The lives of him and those he cared about were basically burned into the ground, and he has been in a constant flux of grieving stages. It feels like over the course of ShB we see him fluctuate between several of the stages, before finally hitting Acceptance after the final battle with him.

[Cleretic]

I think this plays into why the playerbase likes Emet so much. He's a deep and complex character, and is conflicted. He got the most human treatment out of all of the Ascians, and made him feel like somebody you can sympathize with easily. The lives of him and those he cared about were basically burned into the ground, and he has been in a constant flux of grieving stages. It feels like over the course of ShB we see him fluctuate between several of the stages, before finally hitting Acceptance after the final battle with him.

Also because he's unconventionally hot (but not too unconventionally hot), and a type of evil where he simultaneously feels like he has a point but he could also maybe possibly be convinced to not do the horrible thing.

Emet appeals to people who want a quirky sexy man, the people who want a guy they can fix, and the people who want to agree with the evil guy, while somehow managing to remain generally consistent, charismatic, sympathetic and detailed as a character at the end of it all. He's checking more 'character appeal' boxes than I genuinely thought were even possible to check with the one character in the one piece of media; MCU Loki took like, five movies and a miniseries to get this far. Snape's a good comparison, too.

I don't like him, and I remember being very surprised when I learned I was basically alone about that after finishing Shadowbringers; it was very alienating to bring my fresh opinion of 'well most of that was great, shame the ending dropped the ball' to people after finishing and getting 'confusion bordering on anger' as a response. But stepping back and taking a wider look at it... yeah, I can see exactly why I didn't find much agreement there.

[Ralphe2449]

Emet appeals to people who want a quirky sexy man, the people who want a guy they can fix

Oh no, I am strictly in the "i can make him worse" category

I've said this before, but I think the most critical thing to understand about Emet in Shadowbringers is that he's not behaving rationally.

I agree he isnt rational, he is both tired and clearly has a degree of attachment to Azem no matter their disagreements, it is clear the reason he approaches the scions at Shb is because he show the hue of your soul and suddenly thought Azem could somehow lead to a different solution.

It is clear Emet himself hopes for an easier alternative since like I said, scheming to achieve so many rejoinings by itself takes a ridiculous amount of time and effort so even just from that practical aspect all would wish for a better solution without even mentioned as you say his contradictory behavior which are just contradictory beliefs and experiences.
His plan at the end of shadowbringers was to find a way to learn how the exarch figured out time travel because that would easily create new possibilities and you dont have to think hard about said possibilities, it is why I am imagining he at least has an inkling of an idea what a light surviving WoL could do to help bring back the ancients.

He becomes completely honest when he "betrays" the group when you kill Vauthry, he literally screams to Alphinaud "I was genuinely thinking of taking you on as allies" had the guy with Azem's soul been able to hold the light, he GENUINELY believed it could be possible, even if it was not, Emet, an unsundered with great arcane knowledge believed it could have been possible so I wouldnt say it is out of the realm of possibility and an unsundered or Azem at least wouldnt be able to handle the light.


The other option would be that knowing Azem he had hoped that Azem himself would be able to find a better solution hence if you could handle the light like possibly Azem could, you could prove his equal and he could "trust" Azem in finding a better solution which imo doesnt make much sense unless Azem was that good at finding unorthodox solutions Emet never could.

And it is quite clear he knows you have azem's soul since he specifically mentions your soul when he first sees you and later on Hythlodeus in amaurot mentions that there's no way Emet missed the hue of your soul.

[Cleretic]

Oh no, I am strictly in the "i can make him worse" category

Pretty sure you fall under the 'want to side with the evil guy' category rather than the first two (Well, rather than the second category; I'm pretty sure you think he's hot), you're just adding a couple extra steps.

But good to learn that the reason you pre-emptively vetoed the 'Ascians are evil' argument wasn't because you thought that wouldn't be constructive, relevant, or welcome, but because you thought they were too moderate. I admit, I didn't see that coming.