Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Rithy255]

In order for something to be "utility" the sacrifice made for it must be smaller or equal to what was gained. Otherwise, it is baggage, not utility.

If a physical ranged can't outclass a melee who is seriously struggling to maintain uptime and hit positionals, its ability to move is worthless and not utility.

If RDM is paying basically a death worth of damage compared to melee, what is its raise even providing? That's not "safety", its just baggage the second you have the ability to get your first clear (which is still part of prog).

Trying to make sure that the jobs with the least utility are the most desirable by a significant degree is irrational. Any damage extra they deal should reflect the value of mobility or raises on a clear run, which is very, very small, at least massively less than what we see. Uptime is not perfect on a clear run, but it isn't clueless. Requiring a RDM raise to reach the end is usually an enrage to begin with. "Taxing" should be conscious of that .

The word "utility" is vastly exaggerated when it almost always is "the reason 'X job' should suck"

RDM raise, generally lets you see more of the fight, generally which is a massive bonus.
Like I said it would be easier to balance the game without red mage raise. People just want to really ignore that part of my argument or actually ignore Red Mage raise and act like it's useless in every situation.

Phys Ranged should do more in general, Casters should do more in general THE main issue is how privileged melees are, Casters like Black mage and red mage have less mobility then melees generally, so it makes no sense why Black Mage would be so far behind, it makes no sense why red mage is so low currently, Phys/SMN ranged are also in a terrible state.

Removing job diversity and different abilities to a state that it would make the game more boring for me (and likely a lot of people who will be posting about "job diversity). I'm sure it would be more balanced and easier just to get rid of battle raises, I even rather they get rid of battle raises if they think SMN/RDM should be 1% off blm, already hating the 120 burst meta, Making fights babied for melee uptime and the idea of removing "utility" just makes the game worse even if it's more "balanced" and no job will be left behind, until jobs become reskins of each other.

If Red mage was 5-3% behind BLM with a battle raise people would complain that it still doesn't do enough, If RDM was 1% off a BLM people will complain that BLM is practically useless outside getting a "1%" damage bonus, Balancing around raise likely isn't ever going to work at the highest level, they should just not allow raises in harder content (like they're doing with savage dugeons), not the best solution but at least people can look forward to being close to BLM.

[Dogempire]

RDM raise, generally lets you see more of the fight, generally which is a massive bonus.
Like I said it would be easier to balance the game without red mage raise. People just want to really ignore that part of my argument or actually ignore Red Mage raise and act like it's useless in every situation.

Phys Ranged should do more in general, Casters should do more in general THE main issue is how privileged melees are, Casters like Black mage and red mage have less mobility then melees generally, so it makes no sense why Black Mage would be so far behind, it makes no sense why red mage is so low currently, Phys/SMN ranged are also in a terrible state.

Removing job diversity and different abilities to a state that it would make the game more boring for me (and likely a lot of people who will be posting about "job diversity). I'm sure it would be more balanced and easier just to get rid of battle raises, I even rather they get rid of battle raises if they think SMN/RDM should be 1% off blm, already hating the 120 burst meta, Making fights babied for melee uptime and the idea of removing "utility" just makes the game worse even if it's more "balanced" and no job will be left behind, until jobs become reskins of each other.

If Red mage was 5-3% behind BLM with a battle raise people would complain that it still doesn't do enough, If RDM was 1% off a BLM people will complain that BLM is practically useless outside getting a "1%" damage bonus, Balancing around raise likely isn't ever going to work at the highest level, they should just not allow raises in harder content (like they're doing with savage dugeons), not the best solution but at least people can look forward to being close to BLM.

Honestly they could always just limit the raise ability of RDM, if they just added say a 60s cooldown to the raise then it would still let the job be useful by raising the right person, would add an element of decision making on deciding who to go for, and would probably justify them bridging the gap between casters, either that or they could just make it cost say 5-6k mp and probably achieve the same result.

[Ransu]

Honestly they could always just limit the raise ability of RDM, if they just added say a 60s cooldown to the raise then it would still let the job be useful by raising the right person, would add an element of decision making on deciding who to go for, and would probably justify them bridging the gap between casters, either that or they could just make it cost say 5-6k mp and probably achieve the same result.

They could just make dualcast not work on raise. I get that being a "rez mage" is their niche, but I'd really like to enjoy red mage more as a pure dps like BLM than to be a utility bot to prog with. Don't think they should have BLM level dps, but I'd like to see them up there.

[Mithron]

RDM raise, generally lets you see more of the fight, generally which is a massive bonus.

Some jobs being better at prog than others while other jobs are better at clearing/farming than others is fine and does not need to be balanced around so long as every job can both viably prog and clear/farm. Only raid damage buffs need to be balanced around.

Anyone who complains "1% isn't worth losing raise for" is wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Rithy255]

Some jobs being better at prog than others while other jobs are better at clearing/farming than others is fine and does not need to be balanced around so long as every job can both viably prog and clear/farm. Only raid damage buffs need to be balanced around.

Anyone who complains "1% isn't worth losing raise for" is wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"only raid buff needs to be balanced around". Ok So lets completely ignore mobility, positional, ease of access and Utility.

Again having a 1% damage bonus over other jobs isn't a good enough "niche" for BLM in comparison to current SMN/RDM (SMN especially even when removing raise shouldn't be 1% behind BLM)., We've been over this again and again you cannot really comprehend anything outside of number data for balance.

[Aikaal]

"only raid buff needs to be balanced around". Ok So lets completely ignore mobility, positional, ease of access and Utility.

Again having a 1% damage bonus over other jobs isn't a good enough "niche" for BLM in comparison to current SMN/RDM (SMN especially even when removing raise shouldn't be 1% behind BLM)., We've been over this again and again you cannot really comprehend anything outside of number data for balance.

Mobility is actually a downside for caster DPS, RDM in particular so I guess they should gain DPS from that above Melee DPS?
Positionals are akin to the procs RDM don't always get and they lose 20 potency per proc they didn't get so I can this balances for positionals
Monks have Mantra which is a pretty good raid utility for survivability and yet they are currently the top dog so I guess they should nerf monks?

I agree Raise should be more 2% to 3% but let me tell you that it's been 3 years that a lot of RDM complains about that tax and they want raise removed. Some jobs are better at prog yes. BLM isn't great for prog. Monk is fantastic. Best DPS in the game. Basic melee survival kit with 3 personal mits for themselves and Mantra. Monk is ridiculously good. Yet, with all that extra support, SE is still giving them the highest DPS. So I can see why some people saying raise is only worth 1%.

[Rithy255]

Mobility is actually a downside for caster DPS, RDM in particular so I guess they should gain DPS from that above Melee DPS?
Positionals are akin to the procs RDM don't always get and they lose 20 potency per proc they didn't get so I can this balances for positionals
Monks have Mantra which is a pretty good raid utility for survivability and yet they are currently the top dog so I guess they should nerf monks?

I agree Raise should be more 2% to 3% but let me tell you that it's been 3 years that a lot of RDM complains about that tax and they want raise removed. Some jobs are better at prog yes. BLM isn't great for prog. Monk is fantastic. Best DPS in the game. Basic melee survival kit with 3 personal mits for themselves and Mantra. Monk is ridiculously good. Yet, with all that extra support, SE is still giving them the highest DPS. So I can see why some people saying raise is only worth 1%.

I don't disagree Red mage isn't what I was generally talking about as you give up a lot having to be at melee ranged, also Red mage deals with cast times generally likely why summoner is way more used then rdm and Blm.

I think a 10% healing buff has generally less use cases then raise or even magick barrier (but it's still a advantage) and also monks meant to be "hard" (at least compared to other dps), but it also has strong survivability, I generally think monk should be around samurai, melee dps are fairly well balanced (compared to each other), to be fair monk is pretty good right now, despite low use (it's got less then reaper, for some reason).

Lets say RDM and BLM both have no utility (BLM doesn't get self barrier, RDM doesn't get any utility such as raise or magick barrier), I think RDM should actually be very close in total damage to BLM as both have mobility struggles. While summoner is generally more free (and easier to get into, rdm rotation isn't hard to be fair), although I don't think summoners should get punished too hard "for being ez" more because they've just got so much mobility. (I'd actually like them to return Dot's and some stuff to summoner to flesh it out, right now it's just not great imo).

[Aikaal]

I don't disagree Red mage isn't what I was generally talking about as you give up a lot having to be at melee ranged, also Red mage deals with cast times generally likely why summoner is way more used then rdm and Blm.

I think a 10% healing buff has generally less use cases then raise or even magick barrier (but it's still a advantage) and also monks meant to be "hard" (at least compared to other dps), but it also has strong survivability, I generally think monk should be around samurai, melee dps are fairly well balanced (compared to each other), to be fair monk is pretty good right now, despite low use (it's got less then reaper, for some reason).

Lets say RDM and BLM both have no utility (BLM doesn't get self barrier, RDM doesn't get any utility such as raise or magick barrier), I think RDM should actually be very close in total damage to BLM as both have mobility struggles. While summoner is generally more free (and easier to get into, rdm rotation isn't hard to be fair), although I don't think summoners should get punished too hard "for being ez" more because they've just got so much mobility. (I'd actually like them to return Dot's and some stuff to summoner to flesh it out, right now it's just not great imo).

Except... Summoner has no gained anything from that mobility. In Shadowbringer, they didn't have that mobility and Summoners were happy. Red Mage suffers mainly from Raise. Also, RDM has Magick Barrier as per BLM and SMN got Manaward/Radiant Aegis. The amount of time I died in DSR where Radiant Aegis would have saved me lol. Summoners still have to manage Ifrit which is really annoying because Ifrit does have casts and melee combos but is just flat weaker than Titan who has no casts. Best example I can give is dealing with Vents I simply go Ifrit after Bahamut because that's where I keep all my uptime. It's a small DPS lost over using Titan as second but nothing is worst than downtime.

For 6.0 SMN. They came with an idea. Thought it was good, didn't really think how it would fit in the current game and that's what we got lol. I still prefer RDM over SMN. Extra summons WILL NOT fix Summoner :[