AST (and DRG) had their improvements pushed to 7.0 PLD are getting theirs in 6.3

[Renathras]

While I can but speak for myself based on the observations made,

Yeah. Though never say never - FFXIV has shifted in the past, and may yet again. Honestly, the stuff about AST that I thought was most interesting (though I can't imagine doing it while juggling heals) was some of the modifiers and stuff you could do with them back in...HW/SB? I don't remember the ability names, but where you could draw a different card, turn a card into a diminished effect but AOE, swap a card into the Minor Arcana (think this was ShB when I finally got around to leveling it - I feel that to be a truly good healer, one should at least understand the other healer kits, even if not using them, so you have some idea how your abilities mesh with the randoms you're paired with in DF content), and so on. I felt that was kind of an interesting bit of gameplay that was unique from the other healers.

...but, as I say, maybe everyone hated it and it was too difficult to juggle while healing, and that's why it was all removed? That and everyone wanted...I think it was Balance for single target (hence Balance fishing) and I think there were one or two passingly useful ones, one if it could be converted to AOE (if that ability was coming off CD) and one (Ewer?) that restored MP that was useful on healers sometimes, like after Raises or after being Raised.

Also, hope this mini skirmish ain't wearing on you too much. Kudos on speaking your mind nonetheless; it can be a trifle daunting sometimes to be the one holding an unpopular opinion.*

It's a bit taxing. My bigger issue is the personal attacks and people avoiding actual arguments or strawmanning/caricaturing them. If it wasn't for that, I think we could have a really good discussion maybe. But either way, I feel that it's important to express the different position - most especially in a place that might otherwise be devoid of it. With a playerbase of 3 million, I can't imagine that I'm the only one that feels as I do, and if changes were made without that in mind, I think the game would be worse for it. People talk about a healer shortage now, but I would quit healing if some of the changes people push for were made. I might quit the game or I might just main Tank or something. The Healer shortage, I feel, would not be improved by alienating the people who most enjoy the act of casting healing spells on people as its own end. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think I am about that, at least. Especially since my own proposal is a compromise that would leave everyone with something.

Not that it matters, I suppose, as the Devs probably won't read any of this, and won't make any decisions based on it if they do. But hey, sometimes shouting into the void is a meaningful act unto itself.

....

/sigh

Could you not?

For ONE post, could you just...not?

[Cygnia]

I think it was Balance for single target (hence Balance fishing) and I think there were one or two passingly useful ones, one if it could be converted to AOE (if that ability was coming off CD) and one (Ewer?) that restored MP that was useful on healers sometimes, like after Raises or after being Raised.

I believe the ability you're thinking of that could alter the card was Royal Road; the problem with it derived from the core problem that was Balance itself - every other card failed to land as a reliable buff one could slap on the party. MP regeneration was the closest to useful, while leaning on your fellow mages to screw up their MP management. Bit like how using Piety (was it piety?) for added MP amounted to a fringe benefit, but one was far better off just plonking their efforts into more raw power. So the end result was burning any card not Balance.
At least, that's how I recall it. Played more White Mage than Astrologian during the Heavensward heyday; like you, only really tried the class properly during Shadowbringers. It had a reasonable tempo then.

And though developers don't interact much with the forums, they sometimes will keep abreast of the latest squall/debate. Either way, certainly far from alone - everything else aside, asking for more than the odd damage spell here and there will just lead to the monkey's paw of healers performing rotations that inflict the *same* total amount of damage as our glare/broil/malefic/dosis spam plus dots. That's my reckoning anyway, unless Square raises the bar for healer damage.
Also yes, debate over the internet has a high chance of veering off into vexing hyperbole and the worst possible interpretation in the name of 'winning' without engaging. Engaging might mean an end to the conflict!

[T-Owl]

/sigh

Could you not?

For ONE post, could you just...not?

What? Openly express discomfort? Can you openly engage with the arguments I make?

I believe the ability you're thinking of that could alter the card was Royal Road; the problem with it derived from the core problem that was Balance itself - every other card failed to land as a reliable buff one could slap on the party. MP regeneration was the closest to useful, while leaning on your fellow mages to screw up their MP management. Bit like how using Piety (was it piety?) for added MP amounted to a fringe benefit, but one was far better off just plonking their efforts into more raw power. So the end result was burning any card not Balance.
At least, that's how I recall it. Played more White Mage than Astrologian during the Heavensward heyday; like you, only really tried the class properly during Shadowbringers. It had a reasonable tempo then.

And though developers don't interact much with the forums, they sometimes will keep abreast of the latest squall/debate. Either way, certainly far from alone - everything else aside, asking for more than the odd damage spell here and there will just lead to the monkey's paw of healers performing rotations that inflict the *same* total amount of damage as our glare/broil/malefic/dosis spam plus dots. That's my reckoning anyway, unless Square raises the bar for healer damage.
Hoping this thread takes a turn for the more constructive.

I feel like what SE probably could do to make the cards system a little bit more interesting again would probably be just let the cards give players different offensive stats, which casually you can just apply like right now with the added complexity of learning which class scales best with which stat?

And when it comes to damage, I feel like the current amount of damage healers deal is fine, it is quite significant on all levels of content, the problem is lack of engagement while dpsing.

[Mithron]

Yeah. Though never say never - FFXIV has shifted in the past, and may yet again. Honestly, the stuff about AST that I thought was most interesting (though I can't imagine doing it while juggling heals) was some of the modifiers and stuff you could do with them back in...HW/SB? I don't remember the ability names, but where you could draw a different card, turn a card into a diminished effect but AOE, swap a card into the Minor Arcana (think this was ShB when I finally got around to leveling it - I feel that to be a truly good healer, one should at least understand the other healer kits, even if not using them, so you have some idea how your abilities mesh with the randoms you're paired with in DF content), and so on. I felt that was kind of an interesting bit of gameplay that was unique from the other healers.

I actually LOVED HW/SB AST's card system so much. A lot of what you said is correct, I'll try to explain it in a bit more detail. In HW, you drew the same 6 cards as you did now, but they all had unique effects:
Balance: Increases target's damage dealt
Bole: Decreases target's damage taken
Arrow: Haste effect on target (Faster GCD)
Spear: OGCD cooldown reduction on target
Ewer: MP Regen on target
Spire: TP Regen on target

But of course, simply throwing the vanilla card it self without "buffing" it first with another card using the skill "Royal Road" was something you rarely did. Instead, you would draw a card and "burn" it with Royal Road, which made the next card you play have an additional effect. Each card had its own separate "burn" buff:
Balance and Bole (Enhanced): Increased potency of next card played by 150%
Arrow and Spear (Extended): Increased duration of next card played by 200%
Ewer and Spire (Expanded): Made the next card play as an AoE for all party members, but potency reduced by 50%

So the main goal of course was to get AoE Balance, you would generally burn a Ewer or Spire then pray you got Balance. You'd live with AoE Arrow sometimes as a budget Balance when you couldn't get it. But the real fun was enhanced Arrows on BLMs. They'd cast Fire 4s like a race car, it was awesome. You'd throw it on a MNK and they'd hate you for ruining their rotation hahah, or make PLDs run out of TP even faster than they already did.

In Stormblood (I think), they changed Spear from OGCD cooldown reduction to increased crit chance. This was baller. You'd throw an Extended Spear on BRDs and they'd proc like crazy. They also added Minor and Major Arcana for those times you had too many cards and/or already had everyone with an AoE Balance. Lady of Crowns was a single target small heal, Lord of Crows was a single target damage spell. Kind of meh, but it was okay. The best thing was Sleeve Draw: you could now "store" a card in your deck for later, which meant if you drew Balance before having Royal Road set up, you could "hold" it for later, draw a new card, Royal Road that, then throw out that Balance. Mad fun.

[Cygnia]

I feel like what SE probably could do to make the cards system a little bit more interesting again would probably be just let the cards give players different offensive stats, which casually you can just apply like right now with the added complexity of learning which class scales best with which stat?
And when it comes to damage, I feel like the current amount of damage healers deal is fine, it is quite significant on all levels of content, the problem is lack of engagement while dpsing.

So you would be fine with an involved DPS rotation that yielded the same results? Well, alright. I'm not as certain others would feel the same, though. Quite a significant number of people.
As for the idea to spice up cards, while it has merit in adding the sense of complexity to cards the end result I feel will be the same optimised singularity the original cards faced with certain classes/cards favoured and others shunned. Apologies if I've misunderstood your suggestion, theorycrafting and the like isn't exactly my forte.

[Supersnow845]

So you would be fine with an involved DPS rotation that yielded the same results? Well, alright. I'm not as certain others would feel the same, though. Quite a significant number of people.
As for the idea to spice up cards, while it has merit in adding the sense of complexity to cards the end result I feel will be the same optimised singularity the original cards faced with certain classes/cards favoured and others shunned. Apologies if I've misunderstood your suggestion, theorycrafting and the like isn't exactly my forte.

Relative DPS output with more engaging rotations is already what the old healers had, healers are by nature not DPS, 50-60% of a DPS damage is already significant they don’t need to do more than that otherwise you start basically becoming a weak DPS with a limitless amount of support

I’m fine with the level of damage healers do I’d just rather achieve that with an interesting rotation, not dosis spam

[T-Owl]

So you would be fine with an involved DPS rotation that yielded the same results? Well, alright. I'm not as certain others would feel the same, though. Quite a significant number of people.
As for the idea to spice up cards, while it has merit in adding the sense of complexity to cards the end result I feel will be the same optimised singularity the original cards faced with certain classes/cards favoured and others shunned. Apologies if I've misunderstood your suggestion, theorycrafting and the like isn't exactly my forte.

If every single healer class gets a more involved DPS rotation, then yes. I mean, if we would go with that one idea of crippling the most iconic healing class into being the one for people wo hate healers, absolutely no. But who is taken this idea seriously to begin with? But in general if healers across the board would get more involved rotations, I don't think they would need to increase their overall dps performance. Healer DPS is already fairly high in this game.

When it comes to the cards, it was just a spontaneous idea how to make cards different, by giving each an offensive stat increase but of different ones.

Relative DPS output with more engaging rotations is already what the old healers had, healers are by nature not DPS, 50-60% of a DPS damage is already significant they don’t need to do more than that otherwise you start basically becoming a weak DPS with a limitless amount of support

I’m fine with the level of damage healers do I’d just rather achieve that with an interesting rotation, not dosis spam

Like I mentioned, its actually insanely high compared tof or example WoW, where healer dps has become more important over the years as well, especially in m+. Don't know how its right now, but I think in WoW its roughly healers doing around one fifth to maybe oen fourth of the damage of a dedicated dps and that already matters often.

[Leonerdo]

I would agree that healers are kind of poorly situated for FFXIV's demands of consistent damage output while also handling all the mistakes of the party. There's no room for complex DPS rotations, when healers also have to handle additional mechanics (unavoidable heal checks) as well as rezzing/healing/shielding people who mess up. But then when no mistakes are made, or the heal checks are too lenient, there's nothing left to do but DPS. So healers need some kind of DPS tools that don't get in the way of healing when it's needed.

Unfortunately the devs have tried to handle this in the most ham-fisted way possible - removing DPS tools and buffing what remains - instead of just making rotational mistakes less punishing.

They have already done this for other jobs, so it's not hard to imagine. Allow the DoTs to stack up to 60 seconds. Put charges on big damage abilities. Lower the cooldown of 2-min buffs to 115 seconds to counteract drifting. Make all (or most) healing GCDs refund a little damage, similar to Lilies but not a full refund, and ideally using different job mechanics that are interesting in their own right. (Heck, Toxicon already exists, just buff it to be worthwhile.)

These things make it easier to achieve acceptable DPS without removing much gameplay (unless you really enjoy tracking several cooldowns and hitting them exactly on time, sorry). Then they can add more offensive options without over-burdening newbie healers.

The only problem after that is button bloat, but I think there's plenty of options for trimming that down. Combine less valuable/interesting abilities into one, and put combo actions (e.g. Seraph/Consolation, draw/play) on the same button. I don't feel the need to elaborate further, because there's examples all over the forums.

[Renathras]

Aerith Mage ideas

This will be long...but I have said on more than one occasion I'm Entish, and your post was a well presented and laid out effort, so it's deserving of a response in kind (in summary up front - I don't hate this, and there are parts I like, with caveats.)

My position is still that I hate DoTs. But me saying WHM stay the same is ALREADY me compromising on that - in addition to me compromising by saying you guys can have 3 of the healers (seriously do you not see how much my position is ALREADY a compromise one yet?) - but one I'd be willing to make if it made the 3 change/1 remain reality and made people happier overall. I honestly would rather trade the Dia we have for your Banish, truth be told. I honestly like Plegma EXCEPT for it requiring melee range. Somehow, whenever I WOULD need it, I'm always exactly 7 yalms away from the boss somehow, even if I'm sitting on their butt the entire rest of the fight. XD

Alright, so now that I have some time: I think to lay out the foundation, I have to ask this question - Would you be okay with ANY of the healers staying as they are today or as simple as WHM is today?

If yes, which one? If the answer is any of them, then I'll just switch to that healer and let you have the others.

If NO, then as I said before, note that such a position is the extreme one and is inherently rejecting compromise already. But anyway, on to the proposal...

.

That aside, so what of the idea itself...

Cast time to 2.5 sec: How about 2 sec? This is more a practical consideration than anything. I get where you're going here, 1.5 sec is explicitly to allow oGCD weaving, and the objective here is to reduce oGCD weaving. That's good, but keep in mind the modern FFXIV encounter designs tend to require a LOT of movement. Slidecasting can only work so well, and a 2.5 sec cast MOSTLY removes the ability to slidecast effectively. While instant casts can be used in there, keep in mind that the only other Jobs that currently demand hardcasting, BLM and RDM, freely allow movement casting with various spells.

RDM has Dualcast but also has 2 charges of Acceleration (which has been reworked into a limited-Swiftcast-with-benefits - having not read into it when I jumped onto RDM the first time after EW went live, I was VERY confused considering RDM was one of my DPS Jobs of choice in ShB). Adding in Swiftcast, this means RDM can cast up to 3 spells with no DPS loss, 4 if it can lead in with a Dualcast (2 sec cast on the base spells of Jolt/Fire/Stone), and though it is a DPS loss, Enchanted Reprise exists as a movement tool (people tend to think of it as a "fix 100/100 mana", but that's a situation that should never happen to begin with and that's if you don't notice it has a 25 yalm range; it's a movement tool)

BLM can stock two casts of Triplecast, plus Swiftcast, which allows for 7 (?!) spells to be fired off on the move if necessary. It can also use Sharpcast (which stacks to 2) to generate a Firestarter or/and Thundercloud proc, or gain either one or both naturally as part of its rotation, 2 Polyglot stacks for Foul/Xenoglosy casts, and in a pinch has Scathe which it CAN use Sharpcast on to make it slightly less terrible. That means BLM can have as many as 11 (?!?!) instant cast spells IN A ROW in emergencies. And that's ignoring that additional Thundercloud procs could occur among the other casts for even more free movement. Yes, it takes a bit to generate all those resources, but the fact of the matter is, they CAN be generated. Oh, and we have to remember (because I almost forgot!) because of the way Astral Fire/Umbral Ice work, going from Fire to Ice phase also grants a free and instant cast Paradox. So we can add that to the list. Given rough estimates of Thundercloud procs and that you can have Firestarter and Thundercloud up at the same time, it's possible for BLM to relatively easily get 12-14 instant casts. And we also need to remember that Between the Lines and Aetherial Manipulation exist, giving BLM unprecedented movement for a Caster, allowing quick repositioning which can allow for more cast uptime/getting in a quick cast after using one of those tools before continuing movement. Now, I can't think of ANYTHING in the game that requires THAT MUCH movement, but I think people often forget all of this. People say BLM is immobile because they consider the lengthy casts not allowing easy slidecast movement through goodly length slidecast windows, but they forget just how many movement options, tools, and instant casts BLMs can technically string together at need, even if they do have CDs attached to them that limits their use. They obviously can't freecast the entire battle like SMNs can, but they're honestly more mobile than RDM without Enchanted Reprise, and are JUST as mobile if we all Scathe as comparable to Reprise (using their instant casts to ensure they don't lose Umbral/Astral...except wait, they can handle that with Ubral Soul and Transpose, can't they? So they have that covered, too!)

Honorable mention allows us to throw in SMN here, which has mostly instant casts, but has 3/4/5 (depending on spell speed build) hardcasts per minute. However, even there, it has Swiftcast to make any one of them an instant cast, and if it needs additional movement (e.g. during Ifrit after Swiftcasting the first), can use the once per minute Ruin 4 proc off of Energy Drain to get further movement. And that's when it's not in Titan, Bahamut, or Phoenix and has totally free movement, nor in Garuda where it has 4 1.5 sec GCDs worth of free movement.

The irony here is, WHM in its present state is already the least mobile Job in the game if you think about it. For all the talk of BLM being immobile, they have the tools for a LOT of movement (RDM is actually more immobile than BLM), and among the healers, I believe WHM has the fewest free movement tools. SCH has Ruin 2 at a DPS loss (but less than chain-casting Dia/Bio/Combust/EuDosis would be), but with no CD allowing for large amounts of movement and Expedience as a second Sprint for when the SCH and/or the party needs to move and Sprint is already on CD. SGE has two charges of Plegma and up to three of Toxicon before resorting to Swiftcast (and can cast barriers on the move), and has Icarus if any movement phase that forces them to get somewhere has any kind of stack where they can use it to quickly reposition and then get back to hardcasting. And AST has Lightspeed once per minute and a half, allowing 15 seconds or 6 free movement casts before needing to use Swiftcast. WHM has 3 Lilies IF it's sitting on overcapped Lilies (which you shouldn't do) and Misery for a total of 4 if you're playing suboptimally. (If we want to count Dia's natural refresh, then we have that same thing for all the other Healers, so it's a moot point, and likewise if we count Regen, AST has Aspected Benefic and Sage Eukrasia Diagnosis, so that's also a wash except for SCH, but again, SCH has infinite Ruin 2 and Expedience)

Which is to say, WHM is already the least mobile, most turrety of all the Healers as-is, and ARGUABLY (for short-to-medium periods of large amounts of movement, like Ex4's Phase 4 where she's just sending the clones all over while flinging the little AOEs, the ring AOEs, and so on) the single least mobile Job in the game. So how much less mobile should it be, considering that?

That is, I don't think people realize just HOW immobile WHM is compared to most other Jobs. People look at BLM having long cast times but forget BLMs can also go FFX Lulu Limit Break mode if they really wish to do so.

...sorry for the length of that, I just think it's important to explain by example what I mean instead of just say "WHM is already too immobile". I know some of you guys don't like my post length, so...I am trying to cut it down, but I also feel that if I just said it, people wouldn't believe me. This way, people will attack me try to poke holes in it anyway, but at least it's out there for reasonable people to go "Oh...yeah, he's kinda right..." Maybe...

That said: If you wanted to have some few powerful spells that are 2.5, that might not be so bad. Holy is already a 2.5 sec cast, and if Cure 3 was as well, that wouldn't be illogical, imo. I feel like it used to be, it and/or Medica spells...but maybe I'm misremembering. But it's more "filler" spell should probably not be more than 2 sec unless you plan to give it some serious movement tools like BLM has for 12-14 casts without having to stand still. Modern encounter design doesn't really allow any Job to NOT have such capability - and don't get me wrong, I feel like that's something in encounter design that's a bit weird (and part of why BLM is an outlier job in this game), but until that changes, it has to be accounted for, I guess?

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Water/Banish - Provided it's not near-melee range like Plegma, I honestly like this. Something we can use for movement that ISN'T a DPS loss when people are all topped up on health and we aren't in danger of Lily capping that can also be rapid fired if needed. Did you mean 20 sec CD or 20 sec refresh? I'm thinking Gauss Round/Ricochet from MCH, just as GCDs instead, was that what you're saying here? If so, then I'm in agreement with that. I like how Aerith doesn't have to stand and cast the little magic bolts she fires off continually and can just fling them out left and right rapidly if needed. Though it might not allow as much weaving, it'd be kind of cool to me if this ability had a 1.5 sec GCD (like Gardua SMN or Hot Shot Hypercharge MCH), but I get if it doesn't. (See? I'm not against some cool/fun DPS buttons when they aren't overcomplicating things or getting in the way...)

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Aero/Dia - I'm not really a fan of nature magics on WHM. To me, CNJ should have a second Job it picks up (like ACN does SMN and SCH) that's either Geomancer or Druid that really picks up that ball and runs with it. I feel like holding onto the elemental stuff is people clutching onto the past while WHM is supposed to grow beyond that. CNJs are acolytes of the Elementals and wield the Umbral Aspected elements (though oddly Aero instead of Ice?), but WHMs are masters of the Umbral aspect ITSELF, which we learned in our trip to the First is actually Light. I don't mind there being a spread mechanic of sorts for Dia, but the thing about it is, consider that right now, in dungeon runs, applying Dia to enemies while running and swapping to Holyspam when the Tank settles in having gathered everything into a clump IS our WHM dungeon gameplay. If you make Dia AOE, then that goes away. You could argue keeping that aspect with Aero, but why do we need TWO DoTs? You already know my feelings on one and my feelings on DoTs that aren't central to a Job's kit with interactions with it. What's the logic of having a second one when the second one is fire and forget, too? Or did you just mean for the spell line to go Aero -> Aero 2 -> Aero 3 (all single target) -> Dia (AOE) as a single spell line?

.

My one issue with having to cast Holy - in addition to you now asking me to have a both a DoT AND an upkeep buff, knowing that I dislike BOTH of those things... - is that it ALSO is close range. Unless merely casting Holy applies the buff, but that causes cursed openers/reopeners (watched a Mr Happy video today about his proposed MCH reworks and he even notes that problem with his Flamethrower proposal and how it would have to be changed). One other solution to this would be to make Holy like Cure 3 where you can cast it on a target at range OR (if you have no target or an enemy [Cure 3] and in this case friendly [Holy] target) simply casts it at your location. That might be a solution and would also make Holy more distinct as it could be used like both Gravity OR like its current form, depending on the WHM's need. Honestly, that change ITSELF I think would be cool to have. And I agree with you that it's a cool (and iconic to White Mages in FF history) spell that is sadly relegated to such a side-role as "the AOE button".

I'm not opposed to this ENTIRELY, if Holy was changed to make it more usable. Though again, remember I dislike "busywork" spells, which I consider DoTs (that don't interact with your kit) and upkeep buffs (that also don't interact with your kit) to be. So this is yet more you are askign me to compromise on for what doesn't seem to have too much benefit...

Though I WOULD like a reason to cast Holy more often. If not an upkeep buff, something else. Here's an idea (just an off the top of my head proposal, not thought out, just spur of the moment), what if casting Holy generated Blood Lily? Not sure how useful it would be single target, but it'd at least make the AOE rotation more interesting since you'd be casting Misery more often in dungeons at least. Or possibly it could buff the next Dia or Banish. While I hate upkeep buffs or DoTs, I do like abilities that interact with other abilities.

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Lilies: I feel like Misery at level 30 might be a bit...much. I DO believe that Solace should be lower. I think I once proposed level 20 or so. It might be worthwhile to have it generate something like Misery but a lower tier version that upgrades later. I dunno, visually and stylistically, it seems it should come later because it's such a powerful thing. It's core to their rotation, but if BLM's got Xenoglosy at level 30, people would probably raise some eyebrows.

For spenders, that's an interesting idea. The one thing is we run the risk of homogenization - that sounds a lot like Protraction/Krasis, and we also don't want to accidentally make Lilies into Aetherflow 3.0, I wager we can agree on that? I've been saying for a while I'd like a Lily Regen. Two things are ALMOST never wastes - Regens and Barriers. You can throw one on the MT/4 man dungeon Tank at basically any time and it will get at least SOME value. Side story (sorry...):

In ShB, when Energy Drain was removed from SCH, I was among the voices complaining about an issue that it created. "So what do I do if I have 1 AF stack still, I'm coming up on the Aetherflow CD and need to hit it to keep the CD rolling, but Excogitation and Sacred Soil are both on CD?" Where many in the community said "This is why we need Energy Drain back so we can do some damage (and I guess get some MP...but damage, man!)", I had a different position in line with what you can tell is my general philosophy:

"So...WHM has Divine Benison. A non-barrier healer (we had the pure/barrier dichotomy then, AST just played for both teams and we all knew it) has that. Why does SCH not have something like that? Why does SCH, the OG barrier healer, have its main mechanic, Aetherflow, with no barrier abilities on it? Why don't we get a 300-400 potency pure barrier OR have Lustrate gain a barrier with a Trait at some point?" (At least then Lustrate wouldn't be near-useless...)

To this day, I still don't understand why SCH, THE barrier healer, has no instant cast barriers and no barriers tied to Aetherflow. Really stop and think about that for a minute. It is passing strange, is it not? But the reason I thought that was - barriers on Tanks are never wasted except during long downtime (when Energy Drain would be useless as well anyway)

Anyway, back to here. I love Regens. I loved playing a Resto Druid in WoW. I'm liking this tier's normal fights (haven't gone into Savage yet) because I have some cases where using Regen is actually good play (at least, to my way of thinking), but it's still a DPS loss (which feelsbadman). So either having Regen generate a Blood Lily itself OR having Regen as a Lily ability OR having a Lily ability that applied a Regen would be interesting, imo. Something to make it more generally useful and not bad play. In most MMOs (and even single player RPGs), Regens are valuable and powerful spells that you WANT to use and keep up on at least your main tank. FFXIV having pushed Regens to the wasteland of "Bad Gameplay" is kind of sad and it'd be nice if that was fixed. And as I say, Regens are RARELY wastes.

If we had "Afflatus Regen" right now, it wouldn't step on any toes and would give us a Lily ability that's always worth casting to prevent overcapping, and often worth casting other times.

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Misery being stackable with a 20 sec CD is honestly a pretty good move I'd agree with. Can't fit two in a burst window, but this would actually reduce the chance of overcapping, making WHM more flexible (and lowering the skill ceiling in that sense, but I'm obviously fine with that), so all around I think that's a good move.

Kind of disagree on the MP to Blood Lily thing - nightmares of WoW Warlock Lifetap for some reason. XD I already hate using Seraph Strike in Delubrium for this reason. Granted, you CAN Thin Air that.

Besides, in a world where Aetherflow and Rhizomata exist...

(Though I'll note here I'm starting to get worried about adding a lot of buttons, but I'll try and remember to come back to that...later...god this is getting long. XD)

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Arcane Ward...is an interesting proposal. 120 or 180 seconds is a long time, though. I actually like PoM as it is and it feels about the right time to me. I kind of hate the 2 min burst thing, but I have it in a nice spot where I can easily see if its coming off CD to smash it again, and it feels good when I use it...and doesn't require rooting. Now, if we're talking about this as a super-powered PoM+Divine Seal, basically, for a level 100/7.0 capstone...I would not be opposed to that. Though I wish abilities didn't have CDs longer than 120. If I use Lilybell, the entire rest of the fight it feels like the damn thing is still on CD, while abilities like Aquaveil and Tetra feel just about right, and Asylum feels a BIT long, where it's SLIGHTLY uncomfortable wanting it to be up again sometimes, but not so long that it's TOO uncomfortable.

I know it's subjective, but I can't describe it better than that. 30 sec CDs feel spammable, 60 sec CDs feel good, 90 sec CDs feel slightly awkward, 120 sec CDs feel very "use on CD", and anything longer feels like either "I'm never going to remember/use this" OR "I used this and now it's never coming back again." XD I have no idea how better to explain it, though.

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Tempest is...interesting. So undo everything I said above about the second Misery charge being good and making the job more accessible. XD

That said...I don't hate this. Does the buff last indefinitely, or...?

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Button Bloat:

My personal philosophy is at LEAST one Job in each Role should have no more than 29 hotkey spaces. There's a specific reason for this, which is 29 + Sprint + LB + Potion is 32, which is the most you can fit on two sets of controller hotbars (any more and you have to start getting creative with the press and hold shenanigans), but honestly, I've never seen a good argument for "every class in an MMO should have more than 30 buttons". 30 is a LOT of buttons if you think about it. Right now, the Jobs in the game with the least hotbar button requirements are MCH, BLM (go figure, eh?), RDM, SMN, WHM, and SGE. I believe every other Job requires 30 or more Hotbar spaces if you slot all abilities and WHM/SGE if you slot all theirs (this includes role actions).

NOTE WHAT THIS IS NOT:

This is not saying that every Job should have less. It's saying at least ONE in each role should have less (more having less is fine, but if PLD wants to be hyper special and have 34 - the worst in the game in terms of hotbar economy - or SCH and AST 33, that's fine as long as there are some that do not). In any case, there's only so many you can add before we start running into that problem.

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As far as my headspace:

I just like casting heals. I don't derive joy from casting DPS spells IN GENERAL (Primal Rend, Double Down, Misery, and oddly Scattergun are really my only exceptions thus far). But I also understand DPS being valuable in a game sense, which is why I think the Devs (accidentally, probably, but a happy accident) stumbling on Lilies/Misery was such a good thing. It lets WHM leverage the design space of using GCDs to heal instead of always Glarespam (which I think we agree is a positive) since it can refund that with damage, and with a damage button that isn't obtrusive but is FUN to press.

That they stumbled on it by accident is irrelevant, that it's a cool stroke of genius is what's relevant.

I think if WHM design can really leverage into that more, it would be an improvement overall, though with the caveat that we also don't want Lilies to just become glorified Aetherflow like how Addersgall is. So additional Lily spenders, if any, should move away from SCH-like abilities - which is one reason I'm a fan of a HoT, besides the other reasons I stated above. The nice thing is, there's no ironclad rule saying what has to generate Blood Lily, meaning if other GCD heals did so, there wouldn't be any inherent issue as long as the GCD trade/damage neutrality was more or less maintained in a way that still seems balanced.

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Summary:

I like some of your changes - Banish, Holy doing SOMETHING (provided it's castable from range?) though I might prefer something else like a proc or boost to another skill rather than having (/sigh) a DoT AND an upkeep buff..., Tempest, Solace at a lower level - and find others acceptable with caveats - 2 sec instead of 2.5 sec base cast, Arcane Ward if it ISN'T replacing Presence of Mind, Misery at a lower level if it has a lower level form that then upgrades later? - so...I dunno, it's a start of a compromise?

Though, again I'll note how far my position is already compromised. And, of course, that the Devs will never see nor act on this. XD

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Cool (unironically) history less on AST Cards

Yeah, that!

Like I said, I could see that being hard to keep track of while healing...but it sounds interesting and potentially fun. Even having "worthless" cards means you have strategy and decision points. I get that on some level, the problem was there was always a "best" card (or two), so if people got bad RNG it could suck (though I don't think any of them were WORTHLESS, even budget Goad - the NIN thing that gave TP), but the way you could stock a card, convert to a minor arcana, or burn a card to enhance another seemed to let you play around with that and twist fate at least a LITTLE bit.

[T-Owl]

My position is still that I hate DoTs. But me saying WHM stay the same is ALREADY me compromising on that - in addition to me compromising by saying you guys can have 3 of the healers (seriously do you not see how much my position is ALREADY a compromise one yet?) - but one I'd be willing to make if it made the 3 change/1 remain reality and made people happier overall. I honestly would rather trade the Dia we have for your Banish, truth be told. I honestly like Plegma EXCEPT for it requiring melee range. Somehow, whenever I WOULD need it, I'm always exactly 7 yalms away from the boss somehow, even if I'm sitting on their butt the entire rest of the fight. XD

Alright, so now that I have some time: I think to lay out the foundation, I have to ask this question - Would you be okay with ANY of the healers staying as they are today or as simple as WHM is today?

I think the problem with your idea is, that either this class would need to perform insanely high compared to its difficulty and complexity that even in comparison with jobs like SMN, it just would not be justifiable or it would underperform to a level where it would be probably banned from most party finder groups. I think many people, me myself included, also already pointed out how SEs current healer design is schizophrenic and seems to be pandering towards players who don't even enjoy playing the role with how easy absolute dps uptime is while said uptime is made up of a single button spam, so it seems insulting for you to feel entitled to have the most iconic healer in the entire franchise being specifically designed for people who don't even enjoy the role and just want to be carried along playing the easy mode.

Also, what is the problem with healers across the board gaining more button variation in their dps rotation? Nobody is demanding a dedicated dps players level of complexity. I don't think people are even expecting tank levels of complexity in healers, just something more than being forced to spam one button all the time if not deliberately playing ineffectively. People who don't dedicate themselves to healer dps right now, who from my experience seem to be the minority of people I encounter in dungeons even across sprouts, would just play like they do no. And I mean, when it comes to the minority you try to appeal towards with your ideas, the slackers who don't care about personal performance and just want to run along and roleplay being the supportive healer waifu, increasing healing requirements probably would backfire on them even worse, as those would be the first ones to be overwhelmed and unable to perform the role.

Edit: I also would like to add that for players even outside of peer pressure, class performance can matter. Not everyone just wants to play selfishly what they like even if it negatively affects the group and it can feel pretty bad if your favorite class is just worse in almost any situation compared to the rest, it feels like letting your party down by playing it.

I would agree that healers are kind of poorly situated for FFXIV's demands of consistent damage output while also handling all the mistakes of the party. There's no room for complex DPS rotations, when healers also have to handle additional mechanics (unavoidable heal checks) as well as rezzing/healing/shielding people who mess up. But then when no mistakes are made, or the heal checks are too lenient, there's nothing left to do but DPS. So healers need some kind of DPS tools that don't get in the way of healing when it's needed.

I would argue that the issue is the expectations that healers should always be capable of fixing all the mistakes of other players and simplifying the job for that. In most content, the unavoidable heal checks are often dealed with usually one ogcd heal. I think fixing singular mistakes is also a fair expectations and nobody is demanding dps-levels of rotational complexity. But I would argue, a good healer should attempt to learn to manage the juggle between healing and dps and in that juggle, there is room for mistakes which usually happen when somebody is already playing badly. Saving somebody who has multiple vulnerability or a group which collectively fails mechanics repeatedly should be the sign of a very high skill healer, not the expectation. If DPS or Tanks die, in most situation it is their own fault. Like, in WoW you wouldn't blame a healer for not saving the guy who repeatedly stands in fire.