Damage "taxes" deserve serious reconsideration

[Keiisuke]

If a boss does a circle followed by a donut, a melee character has to stop attacking half the time but a ranged one doesn't.

I disagree with this, SE gives you the tools to keep attacking while dodging this kind of pattern (if we go back to the SAM example, Hissatsu Yaten, Enpi & Hissatsu Gyoten which no longer breaks your combo).
Technically speaking, these abilities give you more options to avoid risks than a machinist who only has sprint.

[Mithron]

Ok so you just basically want no one to ever touch Black Mage because they bring zero utility and basically output the same total damage as the other two casters got it.

If you gave black mage raise they'd also lose dps for using raise your argument makes no sense, it's less of a dps loss to cast raise then to let someone tank the floor, so casting raise (if your healers can't) is unironically a total dps gain.

People will continue to play and bring BLM because it does 1% more damage than other jobs due to its lack of utility and people enjoy that job fantasy. My argument still makes sense because there are no mechanics that deaths are necessary. Every death is a mistake, so if you stop making mistakes, there would be no deaths. Doing less damage on top of the time and resources necessary to cast Raise on someone, which is already enough of a DPS loss, losing more on perfect runs means it would always feel bad to play that job in farm, because you would be better off bringing whatever other job without raise tax. The 3 slots of "melee/physical ranged/caster" don't have to be fulfilled. You would simply go 3 melee or 2 phys ranged instead or whatever other combination that doesn't include casters, and always be weighing down your team by playing caster. That's not fun or good balance.

[Ferrinus]

I disagree with this, SE gives you the tools to keep attacking while dodging this kind of pattern (if we go back to the SAM example, Hissatsu Yaten, Enpi & Hissatsu Gyoten which no longer breaks your combo).
Technically speaking, these abilities give you more options to avoid risks than a machinist who only has sprint.

Yeah but those tools are worse than just attacking normally. It's like when a black mage has to move - they've got plenty of swiftcasts and triplecasts and procs and things so as to not drop a GCD, but having to swiftcast a Fire IV or a Paradox to move right now rather than save that swiftcast for a Despair a couple GCDs down the line is a damage loss.

What I'm saying is that more bosses need to be designed so that having to be in melee range is actually a disadvantage. Melee characters shouldn't trivially enjoy 100% uptime any more than casters should enjoy a 100% static position.

[Ivtrix]

Yeah but those tools are worse than just attacking normally. It's like when a black mage has to move - they've got plenty of swiftcasts and triplecasts and procs and things so as to not drop a GCD, but having to swiftcast a Fire IV or a Paradox to move right now rather than save that swiftcast for a Despair a couple GCDs down the line is a damage loss.

What I'm saying is that more bosses need to be designed so that having to be in melee range is actually a disadvantage. Melee characters shouldn't trivially enjoy 100% uptime any more than casters should enjoy a 100% static position.

Wherever the melee have to stack is where the group stacks, doesnt matter if its inside the boss or at max melee range. People dont stray too far unless mechanics demand it due to the fact that all heals are radial. You never stray far from your healers.

[Ferrinus]

Wherever the melee have to stack is where the group stacks, doesnt matter if its inside the boss or at max melee range. People dont stray too far unless mechanics demand it due to the fact that all heals are radial. You never stray far from your healers.

That's why boss hitboxes could get smaller, bosses could do more PBAoE or self-centered proximity blasts, etc. Striking at range should actually be an advantage, although it barely matters in the current raid tier (which SE has explicitly acknowledged, at least).

[ForteNightshade]

That's why boss hitboxes could get smaller, bosses could do more PBAoE or self-centered proximity blasts, etc. Striking at range should actually be an advantage, although it barely matters in the current raid tier (which SE has explicitly acknowledged, at least).

If you're constantly forcing the melee players to disengage in this hypothetical, it becomes unfun for both them and tanks. Especially now with how job design is so incredibly rigid. Constant disengagement can completely throwing off your rotation. Proximity AoEs and whatnot aren't fun either because there's no way to greed them. You just die. I do think the hit boxes have gotten ridiculous but the whole fun of melee is finding the spots to greed. A bunch of mechanics that simply force you off the boss is the worst of both worlds.

[CKNovel]

If you're constantly forcing the melee players to disengage in this hypothetical, it becomes unfun for both them and tanks. Especially now with how job design is so incredibly rigid. Constant disengagement can completely throwing off your rotation. Proximity AoEs and whatnot aren't fun either because there's no way to greed them. You just die. I do think the hit boxes have gotten ridiculous but the whole fun of melee is finding the spots to greed. A bunch of mechanics that simply force you off the boss is the worst of both worlds.

I agree, the fun comes from "Hey, I can greed this way".
It was satisfying to find melee uptime in P3S for example.

E8S was the complete opposite, forces you to disengage without any other options.
It's not hard, it's just annoying and without depth.

P1S shows that you can do in and out without forcing melees to disconnect.
It was also fun to mix that in and out with multiple mechanics.

[Ferrinus]

If you're constantly forcing the melee players to disengage in this hypothetical, it becomes unfun for both them and tanks. Especially now with how job design is so incredibly rigid. Constant disengagement can completely throwing off your rotation. Proximity AoEs and whatnot aren't fun either because there's no way to greed them. You just die. I do think the hit boxes have gotten ridiculous but the whole fun of melee is finding the spots to greed. A bunch of mechanics that simply force you off the boss is the worst of both worlds.

Well, they gotta find a balance of some kind. I don't think making 100% melee uptime a baseline expectation is the way to go. Maybe bosses on which it's easy to give four players constant melee uptime but next to impossible to guarantee that to five or six players (so that MMRR maxes your damage but MMMR is a loss, at least to one of your tanks) is the way to go, but I wouldn't want to see ranged jobs just deal the same damage as melee jobs without additionally having to worry about staying near the boss.

[Ivtrix]

Well, they gotta find a balance of some kind. I don't think making 100% melee uptime a baseline expectation is the way to go. Maybe bosses on which it's easy to give four players constant melee uptime but next to impossible to guarantee that to five or six players (so that MMRR maxes your damage but MMMR is a loss, at least to one of your tanks) is the way to go, but I wouldn't want to see ranged jobs just deal the same damage as melee jobs without additionally having to worry about staying near the boss.

Yeah, its easy to identify the issues but much harder to solve them. SE has been really clear in language in the past Liveletters and other media that their design intent is to be less frustrating to melee. Its obvious the pendulum has swung rather hard in that direction. Theres no need to allow it to swing back, then we are back to 0 in terms of design philosophy. I am sure they are paying attention to the feedback across the media channels they do listen to.

It really depends where they draw the line. In the current way they design fights, theres no reason for ranged to really be behind at all. Even fights like P6S with good timing from a smart player, melee lose maybe 1 GCD max. It they return to a design where melee are inconvenienced by just being melee, then theres a stronger case for a disparity between ranged and melee.

But yeah, solving the issue is difficult and theres a lot of different ways they could go. If I had any good ideas, id be sharing them not discussing the problem with anyone else.

[Pyro2hell3]

mchs problem isn't even really damage taxes its that a selfish p range dps was a really really stupid idea