What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Cithaerias_pyropina]

Back then given the general vagueness of the EN localization I had assumed that only a fraction of Elidibus had parted from Zodiark and that a greater part of him remained in control of the primal, it being the "true" Elidibus. My interpretation was apparently incorrect seeing as how the story ended up playing out. Overall, I would've liked to have had more interactions with both Elidibus the Ascian and Zodiark the God...instead we got Loporrits and Fandaniel/Hermes. That was some decision making at work.

What, you don't like the magnum opus that is Puddingway and his addiction to all things pudding? Pudding. So funny, so haha. Puddingway.

In seriousness I headcannon that my Warriors of Light, I have gotten my main and 2 alts through Endwalker (it's ironically a whole lot quicker to speedrun Endwalker than Shadowbringers because all Endwalker is is cutscenes), that being so close to Zodiark fried their brains and they passed out for 20 minutes after defeating him and the entirety of the Lopporits segment was a fever dream. And that all Lopporits are hallucinations and figments of my imagination. It doesn't explain why other characters can interact with my hallucinations but unexplainable things happening and huge plotholes are par for the course that is Endwalker. Doing that makes the whole Lopporit scene palatable and not-nonsensical when we're having tea parties and costume parties while the world below is going to hell.

Thus writing something that's not subversive and is predictable.

The entire freaking game/story is predictable honestly. We have always been getting a story dungeon at odd levels and a trial at _5 and _9 levels and another dungeon and trial at _0. It stifles creative thinking when forced to implement a reason for a dungeon/trial to come up. It makes the zones feel rushed when you know that you will be done with the zone in 2 levels. It makes the story feel rushed as well. I hope in 7.0 that they break that formula and do something new.

[Lauront]

Yeah it doesn't make much sense when the records are like "oop, Elidibaby showed up. I'm just gonna sit here and watch him with a telescope. Maybe if he realizes that we're just watching over Zodiark, he won't attack me." but we know activity was a lot more intense than "he just showed up". There were conferences around the moon, there was this whole dimension that they gathered on and Elidibus himself banished us to. The moon is where he brings the Warrior of Darkness. Hell, we could have explored the effects of Dalamud on the moon, we could have had a bit more to the moon about Menphina or Tsukuyomi, or about the crashed aircraft there in the corner... But no, insted we just got Zodiark in a Can, the Watcher's tower and a crapton of references to pudding and carrots.

They didn't even bring the Lambs of Dalamud into it all, whose entire creed revolves around the moon (well, Dalamud, but they didn't give up after its descent) and prophecies about it... I often find their ability to thread lore aspects of their own setting together with recent happenings... under-utilised, to put it mildly. You'd think something like the Final Days would spur them back into action. Another example is the High Seraph; very interesting lore about this being, but other than some references in Bozja, no follow-up. It had some great "tied to a cosmic horror" vibes to it that they could've leaned into.

Also dropping a link to the old "story critical" discord again: https://discord.gg/Kwg5Enxh

[Cassar]

Hi, I'm new to this forum as a whole but you guys seem to know a lot about the story of this game so I figured there was no better place to ask my lingering questions. I'm done with the whole MSQ btw, so don't worry about spoilers

I'm sure this has been brought up many times before but I really wanted some clarification on the time traveling aspect of FFXIV, truly this is the singular aspect that intrigues me the most in the whole story. Right so first of all I see everyone saying how the whole trip to Elpis created the time loop in which the whole story is built upon. My question is how could there possibly be a time loop in this universe, considering Graha Tia's original timeline? In Graha's timeline, both Zodiark and Hydaelyn exist and everything is pretty much the same, however in that timeline the WoL died without ever travelling to Elpis. Based on that it's safe to say that Hydaelyn and Zodiark would have been summoned regardless of the WoL's actions in Elpis, right?

Unfortunately, there are some issues here, and these issues are the root of all my problems. How did Elidibus "remember" seeing us in Elpis before sending us back there? If the only reason he sent us is because he remembered seeing us there, then that's a time loop. How did Argus, who never trusts anybody to ride on his back, trusted us with no issue? The easy explanation for both of these is that they simply mistook us for Azem, seeing that our souls are the same.

But then we get to the Pandaemonium raids and we learn that Azem told Themis that we were coming. But how could he have known that? I've seen theories that Azem has the power to see the future and that would, indeed, answer all the problems.
What do you think? Is there a time loop? And if so how is it possible, given what I said about the alternate timeline?

[Larirawiel]

They've messed up the time travel parts in the game completely. There are sooo many inconsistencies and retcons because of this now. They violated the very first rule of time traveling: you can never fix a timeline by traveling to the past and alter it. It is completely impossible. They tried it and they failed leaving many inconsistencies.

Cheers

[Cassar]

The way I understood it, we never went to the past with the intent of fixing the timeline, we only went there to get information on what's the cause of the Final Days. Once we had that, we came back and did what we had to do. What I truly don't understand is what's the point of having Venat keep her memories while everyone else lost theirs? That one little thing ruined everything because it opened up the question of whether she knew of our presence in Elpis and that's why she led us back there, but that would completely contradict the Graha timeline I mentioned.

One possibility is that when we went to Elpis, we actually went to a different timeline Elpis and, whatever the implications of Venat knowing what she knows, is something for that timeline to deal with, ours remains unchanged. A quote that possibly supports this theory is:
"The implications of temporal magicks are not entirely understood, and so we cannot assume that our Hydaelyn and the Venat you met in Elpis are one and the same. Nevertheless, due to Her intrinsic qualities as an all-powerful being, I'd wager that Hydaelyn possesses the knowledge we seek."- Y'shtola

Another interesting quote I found is from Venat herself, and it reads:
"Until a moment finally arrives, we cannot know for certain what will come to pass - regardless of our supposed foreknowledge. So you needn't worry for us." - Venat
I really wish she elaborated a little more on this one, because there's a subtle implication here that Venat understands a little bit of time travel. That and the fact that she was so quick to ask us if we came from the future or not.

I do believe, and hope, that they will explain this further later in the story, whether MSQ or during the Pandaemonium raid. There are a lot of hints and loose ends that seem to have a connection but I can't quite figure it out, but I do think that Azem being able to see the future is the easiest way to explain everything. And it wouldn't be so farfetched considering the Bozja story and how Mikoto also has this power.

[Atelier-Bagur]

The way I understood it, we never went to the past with the intent of fixing the timeline, we only went there to get information on what's the cause of the Final Days. Once we had that, we came back and did what we had to do. What I truly don't understand is what's the point of having Venat keep her memories while everyone else lost theirs? That one little thing ruined everything because it opened up the question of whether she knew of our presence in Elpis and that's why she led us back there, but that would completely contradict the Graha timeline I mentioned.

One possibility is that when we went to Elpis, we actually went to a different timeline Elpis and, whatever the implications of Venat knowing what she knows, is something for that timeline to deal with, ours remains unchanged. A quote that possibly supports this theory is:
"The implications of temporal magicks are not entirely understood, and so we cannot assume that our Hydaelyn and the Venat you met in Elpis are one and the same. Nevertheless, due to Her intrinsic qualities as an all-powerful being, I'd wager that Hydaelyn possesses the knowledge we seek."- Y'shtola

Another interesting quote I found is from Venat herself, and it reads:
"Until a moment finally arrives, we cannot know for certain what will come to pass - regardless of our supposed foreknowledge. So you needn't worry for us." - Venat
I really wish she elaborated a little more on this one, because there's a subtle implication here that Venat understands a little bit of time travel. That and the fact that she was so quick to ask us if we came from the future or not.

I do believe, and hope, that they will explain this further later in the story, whether MSQ or during the Pandaemonium raid. There are a lot of hints and loose ends that seem to have a connection but I can't quite figure it out, but I do think that Azem being able to see the future is the easiest way to explain everything. And it wouldn't be so farfetched considering the Bozja story and how Mikoto also has this power.

Also the Pandaemonium story starts with Themis expecting the WoL to fall from the sky to aid him in his endeavors and we know he got that from Azem telling him, so there's something going on and we just dont know how the pieces fit together yet. Granted I dont know if this'll explain the implications behind Venat and time travel previously but I dont believe the Elpis story is fully told yet, since there's still some mystery behind her but especially more with the elusive Azem. Besides I still think the focus of us traveling to Elpis wasnt to change the timeline, it was just to gather crucial information about the origin of the Final Days which was the focal point of that portion in the game.

I mean I could be wrong. Its not as if this is the first time ever in detail within the story that doesnt get explained till 2 expansions later or some crap.

[Cithaerias_pyropina]

They've messed up the time travel parts in the game completely. There are sooo many inconsistencies and retcons because of this now. They violated the very first rule of time traveling: you can never fix a timeline by traveling to the past and alter it. It is completely impossible. They tried it and they failed leaving many inconsistencies.

Cheers

I think I would have preferred it if going to Elpis created a divergent timeline and we defeat the Elpis Hermes and Elpis Meteion in Ktisis Hyperboreia and save the ancients in the Elpis timeline but our timeline Meteion is still a danger. Elpis Venat does whatever an Elpis Venat does but apologizes for the actions (or lackthereof) of Eorzean Venat/Hydaelyn. So we return to our Eorzean timeline with newfound knowledge on how to deal with Eorzean Meteion and confront Hydaelyn on her inaction in the past and she gives whatever her reason is for her actions/inactions and tests us in battle like how it is currently.

[Allegor]

I like to pretend Venat actually forgot too, but because of how she is she still turned into Hydaelyn and then remembered us and that Meteion is still alive*. That way it gives more of a feeling that some things are written in stone and meant to happen, rather than happening because we intervened.

*could also explain why Hydaelyn 'chose' to shatter Zodiark, rather than destroying him, cuz she knew he's ironically what kept Meteion from coming back.

[Cassar]

I like to pretend Venat actually forgot too, but because of how she is she still turned into Hydaelyn and then remembered us and that Meteion is still alive*. That way it gives more of a feeling that some things are written in stone and meant to happen, rather than happening because we intervened.

*could also explain why Hydaelyn 'chose' to shatter Zodiark, rather than destroying him, cuz she knew he's ironically what kept Meteion from coming back.

Elidibus did say "Yet even should you manage to interact with others, you will be unable to effect meaningful change."
Meaning he hard confirms that whatever we do in Elpis has no severe implications in the course of history, so we didn't really "intervene", we were just present as the events unfolded.

[Ameela]

Personally I'm just glad it wasn't Zeal.