Damage "taxes" deserve serious reconsideration

[Aikaal]

What the Mch could have, could be, similary in dmg to the black mage. Blm and Mch are more similary, as MCh/ Rangers and caster to the meele.
And maybe could the roles be closer in the cap. But, they can not be the same. Otherwise would meele have to big disadvangtements.

- They have many or long combos, who can be messing up, if the system didnt notice the buttom rightfuyll and let you use a false skill (like: you want to use shift+2 for a skill, but the system didnt notice the shift buttom, it use than only the skill on 2 and you have to use a other combo or start the combo again, rangers and caster are lesser bond by combos and have more priority, what forgives this kind of error more).
- has the most situations, where they can not effectivly attack (maybe not in this end content, but it will probally come again, whe had it allready in the past)
- has to do positionals, for max dmg. The positionals have been reduced and it exist true north. But, they still exist and north is limited for 2 uses in 2 minutes)

Ranger and caster, who dont have postitionals, and who dont have long / complicated combos (exception the red mage meele attacks) and lesser situations, where they can not attack, can simply not do the same dmg, for fairness. And because of the practicly endless free movement + attacks + more support skills, does it look logically, that they have to do lesser dmg as caster. With the exception of Machinist, who could be near or similary to the black mage.

I find it really hard to take you seriously on that. So let's recap.

- 2 out of 5 bosses do not have any positional.
- There is no GCD / downtime loss outside of 1 GCD maybe in some fights (P5S you lose 1 and P8S you may lose 1
- They have True North to compensate on positionals. Strats are designed for melee to hit their positionals.
- Melee can move around their bursts (Summoner can't). You're saying SMN don't have any complicated combo. Summoner can't move their burst. They either desync Bahamut or spam Ruin III so there's no optimization. Red Mage have to deal with mobility logistic nightmares such as door boss vents.
- Positionals can literally be seen as being the "mobility" logistic that casters deal.

In the past, Melee was a nightmare to uptime. In Endwalker? Melees have been having it extremely easy. This is fine they do it this way but casters and ranged needs compensation for this.

Lastly but... You haven't actually done any savage right? I don't think this is right of you to discuss a topic you haven't experienced.

[Cithaerias_pyropina]

Red Mage have to deal with mobility logistic nightmares such as door boss vents.

Strange world we live in when the most subjectively easy job is now the objectively hardest job to play optimally. As both you and CKNovel have pointed out. Horrible mobility and horrible/nonexistent self mitigation.

So far each of their arguments wee very good trampolines to prove that melees have easy uptime, have support and very strong personal mitigation and are naturally sturdier.
Which makes them the safest choice in casual content and the least punished choice in hardcore content.

They helped arguing that the melee shouldn't be ahead due to their mobility and sturdyness.

But if we were to repeat arguments each time their repeat their own, we would go in an endless spiral.

I've read through that guys post history, because I was curious, and one of his earliest posts was about how he liked Monk's rework and how it made the job easy to play with Greased Lightning no longer requiring uptime and how little positionals it has now. So it seems to me he's just so desperate not to have his comfort job dethroned and will come up with anything to prove it's damage is justified.

The monk had a good rework.
LG was crap, because it runned out to fast (no enemy, cutscene, not reachable) and the monk was without it to slow at the start (now he is the fastes meele in base form). He was nice in 5.3/4, because, he was so brain dead (i only moved, but didnt thinked much). With the beast chakra has he now something to build up again.
The only sad thing is the lost of his aura from LG4, the "lost" of elexier field (it was fun to Spam it, while running). And the positions is a question of taste (i like the lesser potitions)

[Aikaal]

I've read through that guys post history, because I was curious, and one of his earliest posts was about how he liked Monk's rework and how it made the job easy to play with Greased Lightning no longer requiring uptime and how little positionals it has now. So it seems to me he's just so desperate not to have his comfort job dethroned and will come up with anything to prove it's damage is justified.

Would you look at that. Well, I'm not surprised. So far, every single person who has defended the current balance and how it's "fine" have 0 raiding experience or 0 raiding experience as a ranged physical or caster DPS. They only play melee and only know melee. I don't think I've seen anyone say that caster DPS or ranged physical should outdps any melee. We've only been asking to close the gap between the roles because the tax is ridiculous.

[Mithron]

Would you look at that. Well, I'm not surprised. So far, every single person who has defended the current balance and how it's "fine" have 0 raiding experience or 0 raiding experience as a ranged physical or caster DPS. They only play melee and only know melee. I don't think I've seen anyone say that caster DPS or ranged physical should outdps any melee. We've only been asking to close the gap between the roles because the tax is ridiculous.

I think BLM and MCH should out aDPS the melee that provide more support and utility. A NIN should never ever out DPS a MCH as long as NIN has Mug and MCH does not. Melee vs. ranged is irrelevant. The only thing that should matter is raid buffs. Fight design should include mechanics that challenge and "tax" both melee and ranged in different but equal ways. All jobs should be close to each other in rDPS, so every job's contribution to total DPS is relatively the same and you can play whatever style you have the most fun with without being a detriment. I do not believe utility such as Raise should lower rDPS, but should lower aDPS.

[Aikaal]

I think BLM and MCH should out aDPS the melee that provide more support and utility. A NIN should never ever out DPS a MCH as long as NIN has Mug and MCH does not. Melee vs. ranged is irrelevant. The only thing that should matter is raid buffs. Fight design should include mechanics that challenge and "tax" both melee and ranged in different but equal ways. All jobs should be close to each other in rDPS, so every job's contribution to total DPS is relatively the same and you can play whatever style you have the most fun with without being a detriment. I do not believe utility such as Raise should lower rDPS, but should lower aDPS.

I don't see Samurai having more "support" than MCH or BLM. Tactician > Addle > Feint imho, magic damage is stronger. Those are all role actions. BLM has Manaward, SAM and MCH have Second Wind. Samurai have Blood Bath but does it really matter?

Melees still need to be a little better because technically there's stil ltimes they may lose a GCD here and there. They might lose some positional. The issue is it isn't worth 8% to 10% difference.

[remiff]

I don't see Samurai having more "support" than MCH or BLM. Tactician > Addle > Feint imho, magic damage is stronger. Those are all role actions. BLM has Manaward, SAM and MCH have Second Wind. Samurai have Blood Bath but does it really matter?

Melees still need to be a little better because technically there's stil ltimes they may lose a GCD here and there. They might lose some positional. The issue is it isn't worth 8% to 10% difference.

samurai also have third eye.

Aside from the dragoon, all melee have pretty powerful personal mitigations.

[Aikaal]

samurai also have third eye.

Aside from the dragoon, all melee have pretty powerful personal mitigations.

Yeah but that again isn't game breaking. It wasn't an issue in DSR I had no personal mits on RDM outside of... 3 deaths over 4 months. It's pretty insignificant imho. Usually when you die it's because you missed a mit. Samurai's Second Wind, Bloodbath are active healing. I can also guarantee you and I'm not a Samurai main that Third Eye isn't held for mits for the damage reduction. It is used on CD whenever you take a hit to gain resources to do more DPS. This is the same with Assize on WHM. This is a DPS ability that happens to give healing.

[Mithron]

I don't see Samurai having more "support" than MCH or BLM. Tactician > Addle > Feint imho, magic damage is stronger. Those are all role actions. BLM has Manaward, SAM and MCH have Second Wind. Samurai have Blood Bath but does it really matter?

Melees still need to be a little better because technically there's stil ltimes they may lose a GCD here and there. They might lose some positional. The issue is it isn't worth 8% to 10% difference.

Personally I think the BLM core job identity is "top damage no utility" and therefore whatever job design needs to be done (like removing Addle if necessary) for them to maintain that position should happen. So the top three DPS, currently, should be BLM > SAM > MCH. I don't think MCH should out DPS SAM, but it shouldn't be that far behind.

They don't need to be a little better for any arbitrary reason. Fight design just needs to be better. If they cannot consistently do proper fight design, then the "ranged tax" would apply, but only then. It's not because melee vs ranged as a core concept, but because of failure to properly design fights. Which is understandable, FF14 fight design is usually stellar and asking for even better is heinous, but it doesn't change factual ideals, and I refuse to accept a world where BLM should be behind SAM when both play optimally.

[remiff]

Personally I think the BLM core job identity is "top damage no utility" and therefore whatever job design needs to be done (like removing Addle if necessary) for them to maintain that position should happen. So the top three DPS, currently, should be BLM > SAM > MCH. I don't think MCH should out DPS SAM, but it shouldn't be that far behind.

They don't need to be a little better for any arbitrary reason. Fight design just needs to be better. If they cannot consistently do proper fight design, then the "ranged tax" would apply, but only then. It's not because melee vs ranged as a core concept, but because of failure to properly design fights. Which is understandable, FF14 fight design is usually stellar and asking for even better is heinous, but it doesn't change factual ideals, and I refuse to accept a world where BLM should be behind SAM when both play optimally.

Machinist in 3rd position is a utopia, because he has no mobility constraints, I agree that the mobility tax is much too high, the last hitboxes favor melee too much, but in certain situations it would be totally no brain.

If the machinist, summoner and red mage are 3% behind the melee I would already be satisfied.

[Ivtrix]

Would you look at that. Well, I'm not surprised. So far, every single person who has defended the current balance and how it's "fine" have 0 raiding experience or 0 raiding experience as a ranged physical or caster DPS. They only play melee and only know melee. I don't think I've seen anyone say that caster DPS or ranged physical should outdps any melee. We've only been asking to close the gap between the roles because the tax is ridiculous.

Analysis indicates that the posters current favorite job to play seems to be BLM, which makes it all the more confusing.