Damage "taxes" deserve serious reconsideration

[Ransu]

And ranged classes should have lower damage because...........?

Don't tell me it's because "they have downtime" or "it's more dangerous", because that's not true in FF14.

https://twitter.com/FFXIVMomo/status...81812792250370

This is a good post that explains why MCH is the way it is and why it likely will never match melee.

[Keichi]

By the way, another topic that do need attention for caster DPS mainly is that it's only a matter of time that RDM & SMN become invalid. Because BLM does much more DPS, strats are being designed specifically for BLM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ijy_gV5Upk

This is the prime example of optimization and why melees and black mage will always win. Black Mage is static on first dog. Gets full rotation and the mechanic is basically a target dummy.

So... who was saying that Black Mage was more difficult than RDM & SMN? You'd be right because it is technically true but just look at this mechanic specifically. Tanks are popping invulns while everybody go to their position but BLM. Melees have uptime and can use 1 stack of True North. This happens during a full burst window.

I'll be straight up with people. Who cares about raise if all you need is damage. Dying would make you hit enrage anyways. Who cares about Magick Barrier or Phoenix healing as you get more and more gear you just do not need these tools. Who cares about Embolden and Searing Light when Black Mage just deals superior DPS by a significant amount. Mind you that Black Mage still deals way less than Melee DPS but it is the one exception that dodges the ranged tax because it is "harder". I don't see anything hard on that clip.

Problem: dmg is not all that matter.
People will fail mechanics. Healer can be going down. It is allways good to have additionaly resser.
I even complained, why the blm dont have this skill. Or even better:

Why didnt they make phönix feather usable in fights (and buyable), so, that everyone can ress others. Like in Eso.
It is allways a pain, when the healer are done and you dont have anyone who can raise them.

[Keichi]

And ranged classes should have lower damage because...........?

Don't tell me it's because "they have downtime" or "it's more dangerous", because that's not true in FF14.

Like i sayed, simply because they are ranger (uptime is not even the Main factor, it is the safer spot). Why going into meele, when you can do the same dmg from a safer spot or are able to kite enemy and attack at the same time (ok, that is not happen in savage, but can be situation in normal dungeon)?

One example, why it is safer for beeing in distance, and from not so long ago.
Phoenix from pandaemonium 3.
He use at the beginning a big close up aoe attack (that you can easily not seeing coming, so often it hits the meele). Meele can not use strong attack in the time, where they have to wait for the attack. And, can take heavy dmg, if they are hit of the attack.

In older content exist similary cases. Yes, it exist cases where the ranger can be trapped to (like the palace with this green small enemys). Or by Zodiak. But it is more rare for this situation.
And only because whe havent this kind of tricks in this 4 savage dungeon, doesnt it mean, that they are not coming back again.

It is not even FF alone, where meele have to do more dmg. It has to be in all games, for fairness. A other option could be, that meele have to be more HP or defense as a exchange. Meele needs to have something in advangte over ranger and caster in games, for fairness. Otherwise wouldnt there be any real reason exist, to go into meele (it is simply my experience from differently games, that say, that meele need something in advangte over ranger, otherwise are ranger to superior in games).

[xAFROx]

It is not even FF alone, where meele have to do more dmg. It has to be in all games, for fairness. A other option could be, that meele have to be more HP or defense as a exchange. Meele needs to have something in advangte over ranger and caster in games, for fairness. Otherwise wouldnt there be any real reason exist, to go into meele (it is simply my experience from differently games, that say, that meele need something in advangte over ranger, otherwise are ranger to superior in games).

There's so many hot takes in this whole thread, but quick question, what's fair about a game that touts itself on balance where "any and all jobs are viable for any and all content" when folks are showing how that's not currently the case?

If ranged can't complete the content where others are, that's a failing on balance. Nor a matter of "wait for better gear". At that point, the content is no longer current and thus anything can clear it because it's been crept by the power curve.

[Stormcaster]

Problem: dmg is not all that matter.
People will fail mechanics. Healer can be going down. It is allways good to have additionaly resser.
I even complained, why the blm dont have this skill.

Because at the end of the day damage is all that matter in this game. You don't defeat a boss by outlasting its attacks. You reduce its HP to 0 with damage before the timer runs out.
If both healers go down or really any player, 50% of the time in Savage and Ultimate it's a wipe. It does not matter if you have RDM and or SMN to help raise. Even if you managed to raise them, your SMN/RDM are doing less damage than they should and you may hit enrage instead. Extra raises does help in progging yes. But at the clear you certainly don't want anybody dying.

Like i sayed, simply because they are ranger (uptime is not even the Main factor, it is the safer spot). Why going into meele, when you can do the same dmg from a safer spot or are able to kite enemy and attack at the same time (ok, that is not happen in savage, but can be situation in normal dungeon)?

One example, why it is safer for beeing in distance, and from not so long ago.
Phoenix from pandaemonium 3.
He use at the beginning a big close up aoe attack (that you can easily not seeing coming, so often it hits the meele). Meele can not use strong attack in the time, where they have to wait for the attack. And, can take heavy dmg, if they are hit of the attack.

In older content exist similary cases. Yes, it exist cases where the ranger can be trapped to (like the palace with this green small enemys). Or by Zodiak. But it is more rare for this situation.
And only because whe havent this kind of tricks in this 4 savage dungeon, doesnt it mean, that they are not coming back again.
.

Because being far away really doesn't mean safe in this game. Also other people have explained why we should not take normal dungeon as metrics.
4-man Savage we will see. But that still doesn't discount the fact that in the current Savage tier, being ranged doesn't really have advantages over being melee.
What do you mean Phoinix? Experimental Fireplume? You absolutely see it coming and you just move to the edge, along with the tank and the boss. If anything it's the casters that are in danger because they would be casting stuff and thus may have to move later.

The reason to run melee? Melee LB does the most single target damage. That alone is already a reason. There might be a few Savage fights where using other LBs would be advantageous yes. But mostly it's always the melee LB that improve the team's damage the most. They also currently have more HP than rangeds and especially casters.

[Stormcaster]

Hell, if you want to compare other games that much I'd say Elden Ring's magic is so good you can run pure magic builds. Gee I wonder why are there still players with melee builds? Isn't it always SAFER to attack from a distance? But of course we don't discuss Elden Ring balance here.

[Aikaal]

Problem: dmg is not all that matter.
People will fail mechanics. Healer can be going down. It is allways good to have additionaly resser.
I even complained, why the blm dont have this skill. Or even better:

Why didnt they make phönix feather usable in fights (and buyable), so, that everyone can ress others. Like in Eso.
It is allways a pain, when the healer are done and you dont have anyone who can raise them.

A res is only good in getting you back and seeing further mechanics. You will and usually always will need a clean run with no death. I can tell you that I've have to do a grand total of 0 res in my clears. It's only good to see further.

Yeah, caster raise should be a role action with a CD on it.

[Semirhage]

Like i sayed, simply because they are ranger (uptime is not even the Main factor, it is the safer spot). Why going into meele, when you can do the same dmg from a safer spot or are able to kite enemy and attack at the same time (ok, that is not happen in savage, but can be situation in normal dungeon)?

One example, why it is safer for beeing in distance, and from not so long ago.
Phoenix from pandaemonium 3.
He use at the beginning a big close up aoe attack (that you can easily not seeing coming, so often it hits the meele). Meele can not use strong attack in the time, where they have to wait for the attack. And, can take heavy dmg, if they are hit of the attack.

In older content exist similary cases. Yes, it exist cases where the ranger can be trapped to (like the palace with this green small enemys). Or by Zodiak. But it is more rare for this situation.
And only because whe havent this kind of tricks in this 4 savage dungeon, doesnt it mean, that they are not coming back again.

It is not even FF alone, where meele have to do more dmg. It has to be in all games, for fairness. A other option could be, that meele have to be more HP or defense as a exchange. Meele needs to have something in advangte over ranger and caster in games, for fairness. Otherwise wouldnt there be any real reason exist, to go into meele (it is simply my experience from differently games, that say, that meele need something in advangte over ranger, otherwise are ranger to superior in games).

Being ranged in this game isn't safer. Casters and ranged are dying more often to raidwides in early gear because they have less HP, and can't dodge unavoidable attacks. How is it "safer" to have lower HP and be constantly threatened by undodgeable attacks that will outright kill you more often because you have lower HP and lower defense?

https://twitter.com/FFXIVMomo/status...81812792250370

This is a good post that explains why MCH is the way it is and why it likely will never match melee.

This is all true, and is a microcosm of a phenomenon I've observed happening with games -in general- over the last ~10ish years. Fighters vs Mages if you want to boil it down to that. Once upon a time, Mages were more powerful but squishier. Fighters were weaker but tankier. That's a vast oversimplification, but you get the gist. Over time, that's changed. Mages have lost a lot of their utility and reality warping abilities. In many games they're just archers with sparkly attacks instead of arrows; all they do is deal damage. Meanwhile all of the weaknesses Fighters have are being stripped away, one by one, while not touching their strengths at all. In a lot of modern games, fighters have more HP, more defense, weapons that shoot laser beams at a distance, unlimited use of their abilities, deal more damage, and all of this often walking back to excuses for weaknesses they used to have. Meanwhile Mages are still squishier, can't wear heavy armor, often have heavy resource constraints, can't use all but the weakest of their powers infinitely, and trade all of this for maybe slightly stronger ranged attacks, also with excuses harking back to strengths they used to have.

If you want an example? Terraria. Melee builds have more defense because they "have to be close to things". Meanwhile the best weapon in the game is a....I hesitate to call it a "sword"....a massive AOE boomerang that ignores terrain, has infinite range, infinite piercing, requires no MP to use, has double the damage stat of the strongest magic weapon in the game, and is totally okay because "melee needed something good! And it doesn't matter because it's endgame".

In that same patch, the endgame mage armor got a nerf, because it was "too strong". The best mage weapon deals half the damage of this sword, doesn't ignore terrain, costs basically your entire MP bar to fire it for more than three seconds (and an accessory to auto-drink MP potions, which decreases your damage as a punishment for it), and have always had much lower defense.

I know the arguments for why Ranged classes are often weaker than melees, I just think there's a major double-standard where fighters get nothing but benefits for weaknesses they had twenty years ago, and mages get weaknesses because they had benefits twenty years ago.

[TakumiHarada]

Like i sayed, simply because they are ranger (uptime is not even the Main factor, it is the safer spot). Why going into meele, when you can do the same dmg from a safer spot or are able to kite enemy and attack at the same time (ok, that is not happen in savage, but can be situation in normal dungeon)?

One example, why it is safer for beeing in distance, and from not so long ago.
Phoenix from pandaemonium 3.
He use at the beginning a big close up aoe attack (that you can easily not seeing coming, so often it hits the meele). Meele can not use strong attack in the time, where they have to wait for the attack. And, can take heavy dmg, if they are hit of the attack.

In older content exist similary cases. Yes, it exist cases where the ranger can be trapped to (like the palace with this green small enemys). Or by Zodiak. But it is more rare for this situation.
And only because whe havent this kind of tricks in this 4 savage dungeon, doesnt it mean, that they are not coming back again.

It is not even FF alone, where meele have to do more dmg. It has to be in all games, for fairness. A other option could be, that meele have to be more HP or defense as a exchange. Meele needs to have something in advangte over ranger and caster in games, for fairness. Otherwise wouldnt there be any real reason exist, to go into meele (it is simply my experience from differently games, that say, that meele need something in advangte over ranger, otherwise are ranger to superior in games).

This is one of the worst takes in this thread. You seem to know nothing about this game.
For other action games like monster hunter, yes, because monsters keep doing point-blank attacks that only hit melees.
But in this game's relevant contents like DSR, 6.2 savage, EX, mechanics hit EVERYONE. Melees don't have a higher risk and your point is objectively and factually wrong.

In fact, melees even have a lower risk because of their self-shielding, self-healing, and higher base HP in the first place.
When people do difficult contents, in fact casters always die first because they have such a low base HP that they sometimes need extra shielding in earlier weeks.

And before you start talking about old contents, there're multiple posts here pointing out that devs obviously don't balance the game around old contents because some jobs are broken.
Literally no one except you cares about balancing the old contents.

[Renathras]

I think I agree on all points.

The Ranged Tax has no place in a game encounter space where melee have 100% uptime (or near enough to not matter) and minimal positionals, which can even be dealt with with stuff like True North. Either boss hitboxes need to be a lot smaller, or Ranged damage needs to go up. This is especially true since Casters (less SMN, but definitely BLM and RDM) have at least some periods where they're stuck on the ground casting, and a lot of modern fights incorporate a lot of movement. Melee are able to dance all over the arena keeping uptime and making most positionals while Casters are having to blow through tools just to maintain ABC at a minimal level.

Utility definitely needs a reevaluation. Moreover, it punishes people who like a playstyle even if they don't like or use the utility. Some people like RDM's rotation, but they're punished with one of the lowest damage outputs even when doing content where Verraise isn't used or can't help (either super casual content or super hardcore content where no one is dying or it's a wipe anyway). While some utility can be weighted against damage, the gap is clearly too much right now.

Difficulty is especially problematic. While on paper, "work harder, benefit more" seems to make sense in a meritocracy world, the problem is some Jobs are DESIGNED to be easier to play. Moreover, what players like or find comfortable OR difficult is individual and subjective. I found old SMN easy to grasp and keep the rotation going, but consistently wiffed stuff on RDM, the supposedly easier Job, because the procs didn't necessarily register with my brain. Some people think low APM means a Job is easier, but BLM, widely regarded as one of the more challenging Jobs in the game, has one of the more simplistic core rotations. While I don't expect every Job will appeal to everyone, because what is highly difficult to one person might be easy to another (I'm a healer main and maintaining DoT uptime in ANY GAME is the most difficult thing to me for whatever reason - I have no idea why, but it is; so of course EVERY healer gets slapped with a DoT... <_< )

...because of how subjective it is, it shouldn't really be used as a key of measurement or balance. While having some Jobs regarded as having a higher skill ceiling existing and topping the pack is probably okay, the gap, again, should be far narrower than it is today. Having some easier Jobs isn't bad - not everything needs to be hyper hardcore or games die (SEE: Wildstar), but there are limits to what that "bonus" should be for the harder ones.

And above all: The gaps should never be large enough that some Jobs genuinely cannot contribute effectively to clearing content. I think we've seen what that leads to.