Damage "taxes" deserve serious reconsideration

[Ransu]

So people cried because uPtImE and now that circles are bigger they cry about maH dEePs as ranged. SE should just stop catering to number slaves. There is no winning. Only the removal of interesting abilities because someone did a spreadsheet. I don't think XIV can afford to become more boring in terms of job design. lol

Only real way they could get away from that is removing the damage logs to make it harder for software to read them, but that would piss a whole lot of people off and the dev team knows it. Its why dps programs are such a grey area. They don't want it being openly used in game, but they know that without it end gamers would love their minds over it.

[Rilifane]

If you keep saying that things are facts because you say so while at the same time having no or next to no experience with the things you're talking about, you're really not worth having a discussion with. You don't even try to understand what people are saying while presenting your opinion as facts when people much more experienced than you gave several good arguments you ignored completely.

I'll say it once last time: classes are and should be balanced around content where balance matters. And that is only Savage and Ultimate for PvE. Nothing else. It doesn't even matter in Extreme (which is NOT the same as Savage btw).
You can run 2x WAR, 2x AST and 4x DNC in any normal content and you'll be perfectly fine. Try the same in Savage and you'll get steamrolled.
Comp of any sort doesn't matter in normal content. Classes overwriting buffs doesn't matter. Considerably slower LB generation doesn't matter. Having no hard hitters to make good use of buffs doesn't matter. Amount of mitigation doesn't matter.
All of it does matter in Savage because this content pushes the toolkits. It's not about us thinking Savage is more important. It's the logical conclusion to what the devs do: create content where balance doesn't matter at all (normal) and content where it matters (savage/ ultimate).

[Kalaam]

Let's take an example.
You are a new player, you play through the story, have fun and level up the job that strike your fantasy the most: Machinist. You love mechs and having a fancy gun.
You don't level anything but that, just having bard around level 60 from doing ARR until you go to MCH, and once you're done with the story and have tried the normal raids, you think for yourself "I want to try the harder content, push my skill!" and nice, the new raid tier is coming up soon.
So you get the minimum gear for it, practice your rotation, meld your stuff and... no matter how much you try you always fail. With or without number tools, people would figure out sooner or later that groups of equal skill with a machinist would do worse than groups with something else, so in the end... you get cut out of that content for no fault of you own save from picking the wrong job. So either you level up another job you might not be as interrested in, or you give up on trying the high end content.

Especially when the devs say that for jobs like healers, you have to play savage to fully enjoy your role, that type of balancing just doesn't cut it. Sorry Ransu but that's the issue here, the balance doesn't affect normal content much, yeah, and that's why people don't talk about balance in normal, but balance in hard content.

[Aikaal]

By the way, another topic that do need attention for caster DPS mainly is that it's only a matter of time that RDM & SMN become invalid. Because BLM does much more DPS, strats are being designed specifically for BLM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ijy_gV5Upk

This is the prime example of optimization and why melees and black mage will always win. Black Mage is static on first dog. Gets full rotation and the mechanic is basically a target dummy.

So... who was saying that Black Mage was more difficult than RDM & SMN? You'd be right because it is technically true but just look at this mechanic specifically. Tanks are popping invulns while everybody go to their position but BLM. Melees have uptime and can use 1 stack of True North. This happens during a full burst window.

I'll be straight up with people. Who cares about raise if all you need is damage. Dying would make you hit enrage anyways. Who cares about Magick Barrier or Phoenix healing as you get more and more gear you just do not need these tools. Who cares about Embolden and Searing Light when Black Mage just deals superior DPS by a significant amount. Mind you that Black Mage still deals way less than Melee DPS but it is the one exception that dodges the ranged tax because it is "harder". I don't see anything hard on that clip.

[Kalaam]

Utility and flavorful quirks like these should not disappear however.

[Keichi]

Let's take an example.
You are a new player, you play through the story, have fun and level up the job that strike your fantasy the most: Machinist. You love mechs and having a fancy gun.
You don't level anything but that, just having bard around level 60 from doing ARR until you go to MCH, and once you're done with the story and have tried the normal raids, you think for yourself "I want to try the harder content, push my skill!" and nice, the new raid tier is coming up soon.
So you get the minimum gear for it, practice your rotation, meld your stuff and... no matter how much you try you always fail. With or without number tools, people would figure out sooner or later that groups of equal skill with a machinist would do worse than groups with something else, so in the end... you get cut out of that content for no fault of you own save from picking the wrong job. So either you level up another job you might not be as interrested in, or you give up on trying the high end content.

Especially when the devs say that for jobs like healers, you have to play savage to fully enjoy your role, that type of balancing just doesn't cut it. Sorry Ransu but that's the issue here, the balance doesn't affect normal content much, yeah, and that's why people don't talk about balance in normal, but balance in hard content.

In your example is the biggest error:
Using minimum gear. Who would even try to do savage with minimum gear?
That this doesnt work is clear as the day. It is logical, that you have hard time with the lowest Equipment. That is even the case in normal content.
I would complain the other player, would they kick out people. Only because of the class.
Yes, there are sometimes groups that didnt work. I had this groups to, by Zodiak and Hydaelin and normal pandaemonium. But, i never complained so much about other classes, only because of the class (most of my complains would be the thinking, that it will need more time). But, because of the gear. Instant of going week 1 into savage (or with the lowest ilvl), i would wait until i have around mid lvl (mean currently around 610-615).

Did whe question this on a other way.
I read the whole time only complainings to p8s. How are the statics for p5-7s, dragonsong ultima, the hair voidsent with 615 weapons and endsinger?
Are there this much problems to? Or are they all not important, because, they are not the last dungeon/ older content?

[Kalaam]

In your example is the biggest error:
Using minimum gear. Who would even try to do savage with minimum gear?
That this doesnt work is clear as the day. It is logical, that you have hard time with the lowest Equipment. That is even the case in normal content.
I would complain the other player, would they kick out people. Only because of the class.
Yes, there are sometimes groups that didnt work. I had this groups to, by Zodiak and Hydaelin and normal pandaemonium. But, i never complained so much about other classes, only because of the class (most of my complains would be the thinking, that it will need more time). But, because of the gear. Instant of going week 1 into savage (or with the lowest ilvl), i would wait until i have around mid lvl (mean currently around 610-615).

Did whe question this on a other way.
I read the whole time only complainings to p8s. How are the statics for p5-7s, dragonsong ultima, the hair voidsent with 615 weapons and endsinger?
Are there this much problems to? Or are they all not important, because, they are not the last dungeon/ older content?

I said it was in the case of a new tier coming up, at first when you attempt it you'll have minimal gear. For which the content is intended to be doable.
Even if you can clear it weeks or months later with better gear, it is still an issue. For a marginal amount of people, true. But let's say you want to participate in races, trying to get a week 1 clear and such, there will be jobs deemed unable to do it, or too much of a liability. Essentially "non serious jobs for high end content"

[Keichi]

Let's take an example.
You are a new player, you play through the story, have fun and level up the job that strike your fantasy the most: Machinist. You love mechs and having a fancy gun.
You don't level anything but that, just having bard around level 60 from doing ARR until you go to MCH, and once you're done with the story and have tried the normal raids, you think for yourself "I want to try the harder content, push my skill!" and nice, the new raid tier is coming up soon.
So you get the minimum gear for it, practice your rotation, meld your stuff and... no matter how much you try you always fail. With or without number tools, people would figure out sooner or later that groups of equal skill with a machinist would do worse than groups with something else, so in the end... you get cut out of that content for no fault of you own save from picking the wrong job. So either you level up another job you might not be as interrested in, or you give up on trying the high end content.

Especially when the devs say that for jobs like healers, you have to play savage to fully enjoy your role, that type of balancing just doesn't cut it. Sorry Ransu but that's the issue here, the balance doesn't affect normal content much, yeah, and that's why people don't talk about balance in normal, but balance in hard content.

To complete the question:

Yes, a class would need a buff, if he is by equal circumstances much lower, than similary other classes.

But, the question would be:
- how much lower is he? In wich contenx is he lower?

- how much differently is it to similary classes (ranger to ranger, meele to meele and so on)

- is the class a Support typ, that justify his lower Performance?

As i saw, is the difference between mch and the meele only 10%. It is true, that it is visibly lower. But is it even meaningfull lower? 10% did look much for me. And maybe other. Additionaly is it worth to discuss, if ranger should have lower dps (at last in my opinion, yes).
Than, how you see the data for support classes and Main classes.
The Programm that you guys use count the buff data to the one, who gave the buff. Other programms in other mmo (at last in my days in wow) counted buff dmg to the one, who did the dmg. And not the one, who gave the buff.

And at last would be the question:
Would the people even noticing, who is the weakest of all?
One reason, why FF dont have officaly dmg counter is, to not have this kind of discussions, about to low dmg.
And, if the lower dmg problem solved, when the people use high end ilvl? In the actually case, around 620 equipment?

[Semirhage]

Additionaly is it worth to discuss, if ranger should have lower dps (at last in my opinion, yes)

And ranged classes should have lower damage because...........?

Don't tell me it's because "they have downtime" or "it's more dangerous", because that's not true in FF14.

[ChameleonMS]

In your example is the biggest error:
Using minimum gear. Who would even try to do savage with minimum gear?

Every world racing week 1 clear groups are using the minimum item level which is crafted gear released at the time raid tier.
Min ilvl + whatever drop you get from the previous fights all that you can have. Only 1 or 2 members of a team get any gear during week 1; while the other 6 players are still at the minimum.

Savage adjacent: all Ultimate and Unreal fights are ilvl protected by the level sync and functionally done at minimum ilvl.