Tales from the Dawn #4: "A Question of Death" (Jullus)

[Cleretic]

I'm really not sure what, exactly, you're struggling to grasp. Garlemald is repeatedly described as an inhospitable wasteland. It's cold. Even colder than Coerthas after freezing over in the aftermath of the Calamity. There are a great many references to the fact that the Garleans have been forced on the defensive at every turn both before and after becoming an Empire. They're not obligated to roll over and allow themselves to be wiped out - and their distrust of outsiders is completely understandable given all they've been through across multiple generations.



The Ishgardians were locked in a bitter war with the Dravanians over the course of a thousand years so I'm wondering why it's apparently such a stretch to accept that the displaced Garleans were locked in similar bitter struggles after already being actively persecuted...?

What Kari's saying (and something that isn't refuted by any of your choices of quote) is that while Garlemald has absolutely been pushed to the barest edgest of habitability, it just doesn't square that they were actually at constant war after that point. They end up in present-day Garlemald sometime around six hundred years before the game's present day (by nomadic raiders rather than outright organized armies), and it's definitely been an existential fight to live there for them, but there is no actual evidence that there was a literal fight to live. The only thing that comes close is Quintus, and Quintus isn't exactly citing sources; seriously, we went there, what was even there to fight them over aside from ceruleum that people didn't even have use for for most of that time? I assume it's combustive, sure, but... so is fire magic, and everyone else had that. Without magitek that wasn't rediscovered yet (remember that Allag was mostly a curio until Solus dug up their stuff and the Seventh Calamity blew some holes in Eorzea), would that have been worth going all that way for?

The Garlean cultural identity is absolutely one of a cornered dog forced to get violent, and nobody is arguing that such an outlook wasn't historically justified, but it's just that: historically justified. The Ishgardians and Dravanians were confirmably at war for a thousand years, we have proof, but Garlemald at constant war over a little over half that same period? There's not actual evidence for it, and there's not much logical explanation for why they would've been; only the rhetorical allegations of an old man desperate to win an argument after he'd lost everything else.

You ever find evidence of the Garleans at brutal war with Corvosians in the 1200s 6AA I'll be happy to believe it, it's not even the longest war in the game's history, but as it stands that evidence just doesn't exist.

[RyuDragnier]

I'm not sure how much warring there actually was, outside of maybe isolated groups/gangs from nearby countries trying to take things because the Garleans were "easy prey" due to not having magic. One thing I can say for certain though, Landis was likely a country that did not treat Garlemald badly. Landis was brought into Garlemald and its people have been treated kindly (though I'm not sure if it was like that at first), something the Garleans would have been unlikely to do if Landis was a country at war with them. Hell, the Magitek Academy is in Landis, and I'm pretty sure the Garleans would not have built it there if they considered Landis a conquered hostile nation.

[thegreatonemal]

I'm not sure how much warring there actually was, outside of maybe isolated groups/gangs from nearby countries trying to take things because the Garleans were "easy prey" due to not having magic. One thing I can say for certain though, Landis was likely a country that did not treat Garlemald badly. Landis was brought into Garlemald and its people have been treated kindly (though I'm not sure if it was like that at first), something the Garleans would have been unlikely to do if Landis was a country at war with them. Hell, the Magitek Academy is in Landis, and I'm pretty sure the Garleans would not have built it there if they considered Landis a conquered hostile nation.

I think that might just be because Landis surrendered quickly when the Garleans came knocking. It doesn't seem like established nations really messed with the Garleans. Just nomadic bandits.

[Layte_Aeon]

... what was even there to fight them over aside from ceruleum that people didn't even have use for for most of that time? I assume it's combustive, sure, but... so is fire magic, and everyone else had that. Without magitek that wasn't rediscovered yet (remember that Allag was mostly a curio until Solus dug up their stuff and the Seventh Calamity blew some holes in Eorzea), would that have been worth going all that way for?

Ceruleum as a fuel is combustive yes... it's also volatile, requiring delicate handling and evaporates in contact with air, that's why Camp Bluefog is the way that it is. Not to mention that until recently (about shortly after the Bozja incident if I remember), there wasn't much use in Eorzea for Ceruleum, what was being dug up was mostly sold to other places, the most notable, and biggest buyers being, ironically enough Garlemald.

[KariTheFox]

What Kari's saying (and something that isn't refuted by any of your choices of quote) is that while Garlemald has absolutely been pushed to the barest edgest of habitability, it just doesn't square that they were actually at constant war after that point. They end up in present-day Garlemald sometime around six hundred years before the game's present day (by nomadic raiders rather than outright organized armies), and it's definitely been an existential fight to live there for them, but there is no actual evidence that there was a literal fight to live. The only thing that comes close is Quintus, and Quintus isn't exactly citing sources; seriously, we went there, what was even there to fight them over aside from ceruleum that people didn't even have use for for most of that time? I assume it's combustive, sure, but... so is fire magic, and everyone else had that. Without magitek that wasn't rediscovered yet (remember that Allag was mostly a curio until Solus dug up their stuff and the Seventh Calamity blew some holes in Eorzea), would that have been worth going all that way for?

The Garlean cultural identity is absolutely one of a cornered dog forced to get violent, and nobody is arguing that such an outlook wasn't historically justified, but it's just that: historically justified. The Ishgardians and Dravanians were confirmably at war for a thousand years, we have proof, but Garlemald at constant war over a little over half that same period? There's not actual evidence for it, and there's not much logical explanation for why they would've been; only the rhetorical allegations of an old man desperate to win an argument after he'd lost everything else.

You ever find evidence of the Garleans at brutal war with Corvosians in the 1200s 6AA I'll be happy to believe it, it's not even the longest war in the game's history, but as it stands that evidence just doesn't exist.

Exactly. I think it important to distinguish properly between what is confirmed, historical fact, and what is rhetoric and conjecture. And really, when I think of people nearly driven to extinction, I don't think of functioning republics with standing militaries.

Also, another point is that "being prey to bandits and raiders because your nation's government/military cannot ensure its people's safety" isn't even a uniquely Garlean problem.

[SilverArrow20XX]

That family photo to me seemingly confirms that Titus is indeed the uncle that died during the war of succession whose coffin Varis spit on.
There are no other uncles in the full family photo after all.

[Absimiliard]

Exactly. I think it important to distinguish properly between what is confirmed, historical fact, and what is rhetoric and conjecture. And really, when I think of people nearly driven to extinction, I don't think of functioning republics with standing militaries.

Garlean purebloods are mentioned many times to be a rather small population. They aren't exactly verging extinction anymore, but their numbers remain notably low well into the current age. Their republic is noted to have been significantly weaker than their neighbors, standing military or not. The Garleans did not become a power until the advent of magitek, but even with this technological advantage they came to rely more on the innate abilities of conscripts and willing enlistees from conquered territories. That's not to discount magitek, of course; it made them very formidable.

Also, another point is that "being prey to bandits and raiders because your nation's government/military cannot ensure its people's safety" isn't even a uniquely Garlean problem.

And this diminishes the plight of their forbears how? Would you feel less victimized if, after having just been kicked in the throat, you saw someone else also get kicked in the throat? What if the individual responsible for kicking you in the throat then walked over and stole your wallet, car keys, clothes, and phone?

[SentioftheHoukai]

I don't think it's possible to curb the out of this omniverse amount of rampant hypocrisy in this GCBTW anymore. Any who've agreed with literally anything I've said in the past, I wonder where you get the willpower and drive to keep attempting such.

[MikkoAkure]

The Garleans did not become a power until the advent of magitek, but even with this technological advantage they came to rely more on the innate abilities of conscripts and willing enlistees from conquered territories.

Going to need a source on this. I've heard nothing about the Empire's conscripts being considered a greater resource than magitek. Considering we fight magitek as bosses in dungeons in the game and not conscripts, I don't believe it. I'd like to see a bunch of provincials troops with magic try fighting Midgardsormr like the Agrius did. Considering the rest of the world is at the medieval or renaissance technology level, even with magic I don't think many nations stood a chance against the autonomous warmachina, and flying juggernauts and airships.

The EE does say the Garlean army became stronger with recruits from the places they conquered, but it also says that the success of the invasion of Nhalmasque was due to airships and that the rest of the invasions were done with "warmachina at the fore". I also think 1 Agrius would be much stronger than a province's worth of conscripts that have magic.

And this diminishes the plight of their forbears how? Would you feel less victimized if, after having just been kicked in the throat, you saw someone else also get kicked in the throat? What if the individual responsible for kicking you in the throat then walked over and stole your wallet, car keys, clothes, and phone?

Pretty sure the original poster mentioned bandits who specifically steal things so I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here.

[Absimiliard]

You need a source on the majority of Garlean troops being non-pureblood? I..have, have you ever played Final Fantasy XIV?

At this point it's pretty apparent you are being intentionally obtuse. I clearly stated the Garleans rely more on their conscripts than magitek gear due to the limited number of purebloods around. Nowhere did I mention magitek having less value or being less in power. In fact, I specifically note the sheer power of magitek in the post. Do try again.

But if you want a source? Almost every encounter with rank and file Garlean troops in the game.

Airships and warmachina are great and all, but no military force is going to get very far without people to man their death machines, without ground troops to march into battle, without mages, archers, and the like to bombard their enemies from afar.