[Machinist] What is going on?

[Cetonis]

Sounds like someone who swapped jobs just to clear the tier because they realized it wasn't good enough.

Oh wait. You did.

I could probably clear the fights I am in significantly easier if I was Bard or Dancer this tier. But I refuse to simp for my static, so they all get to suffer for it instead because Machinist isn't even meeting par. If you're going to state something so absurd, at least provide proof of it, which you can't do because the data already proves otherwise.

What are you on? I'm a Bard main through and through. Machinist is the job I swap to for the first fight(s) of week 1, because it's much better for clearing those quickly. Early fight dps checks only matter when you have a heap of deaths, and MCH blows out the other ranged in those messy runs.

Also, frankly you *should* be playing MCH in your group. The rDPS gained by Bard and Dancer vs. their lower natural damage, looks like it'd be about a wash for your group. Because you have a pretty normal group. The very large majority of people tackling savage are going to be in teams around as good as yours, or worse, and can be quite a bit worse as we get down the road.


So yes, MCH is pretty solid damage-wise relative to the other ranged, maybe a percent behind at worst, for the typical savage group. Week 1-2 clear groups are only a thin slice of the overall populace. The job has room to be that 1% touch stronger, but it straight-up cannot be allowed to compete with the scaling ranged at the top end for obvious reasons.

Singling out MCH as the sole job that should get a buff, as opposed to the ranged+casters as a whole, is a dead end. It doesn't have much room to gain damage by its lonesome. SE is not going to add a party buff to MCH this expac, or probably ever. They should at least add some defensive utility, but once again adding entirely new skills is not a thing that happens in the middle of an expac.

The better case is to point out how silly the ranged tax is in general, when SE is making it next to impossible for melee to have downtime ever.

[Mithron]

So yes, MCH is pretty solid damage-wise relative to the other ranged, maybe a percent behind at worst, for the typical savage group.

Singling out MCH as the sole job that should get a buff, as opposed to the ranged+casters as a whole, is a dead end.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Seraphor]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Little cropping to make it perfectly clear:




Also, if MCH was balanced appropriately, for a selfish dps job that's supposedly easier to play than the other two in the ranged role, I would expect it to look something more like this:



As you can see, although the top scores aren't as high due to party optimisation for utility jobs giving them an edge, they're still in a comparable range, however the median and lower scores are higher, because it's supposedly easier to play and more consistent in it's own damage output.

At this point you can then turn around and say "the ranged role in general is too low" and buff them all equally.

[Cetonis]

That's not what percentiles are. Player percentile =/= group percentile.

[MichiKyou]

Singling out MCH as the sole job that should get a buff, as opposed to the ranged+casters as a whole, is a dead end. It doesn't have much room to gain damage by its lonesome. SE is not going to add a party buff to MCH this expac, or probably ever. They should at least add some defensive utility, but once again adding entirely new skills is not a thing that happens in the middle of an expac.
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No one here is disputing other jobs need a buff? This is just a thread focusing on machinist. I dont go into reaper threads and start trying to derail it about Machinist.

[Cetonis]

No one here is disputing other jobs need a buff? This is just a thread focusing on machinist. I dont go into reaper threads and start trying to derail it about Machinist.

Sure. I'm mixing in frustration with MCH derailing other convos in general between here and other places.

[Kachou_]

Sure. I'm mixing in frustration with MCH derailing other convos in general between here and other places.

They already mentioned ranged tax in 6.21 patch note.
So no, BARD WILL NOT RECEIVE A BUFF. THEY ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Snip.

Also, one must not forget that Bard and Dancer heavily rely on the team for their rDPS.

See below : This is the rDPS (In value, not score, because you can't quantify with score) for anything in the 95 Percentile



As you can see, Dancer is around 250 rDPS above the MCH, while BRD is only 110 rDPS Above it.

And now, let's see nDPS (nDPS is the DPS output you have WITHOUT any external buff. It will only counts what you can do on your own.)



As you can see here, MCH is above BRD and DNC by more than 1.300 DPS.

With all of this value we can easily say this :

MCH can bring a DPS far superior than DNC and BRD on his own. (In under normal circonstance, He will replace DNC/BRD because of the ranged slot)

DNC/BRD Heavily rely on the team. If the team isn't good, they won't be either. (People who dies constantly, who don't do their rotation correctly, who don't keep uptime, etc etc... Many factor goes into account)


As for the question : Do machinist need a buff ?

Yes, I think that MCH need a slight buff. 250 rDPS means 150.000 pts of Damage over a 10 minute fight.... BUT that's only if all parameters and every character in the team is "Equal".

Why is that ? Can you compare the rDPS of a DNC linked to a SAM with a 615 Weapon, against the same DNC but with a SAM with a 635 weapon ?

No you can't !

As for now, Those value are done into the 95 Percentile and may not reflect the final rDPS reached by those class because of their stuff. Some may not have their iLvl 635 weapon, not full 630 armor, etc etc... And this will affect DNC and BRD tremendously because if the MCH don't have his full 630 stuff but the team of the DNC/BRD has, those value don't mean anything and will be biased.

the "Percentile" don't take into account the ilvl of the person. It's not something you want to use as a miracle database.

[CKNovel]

MCH can bring a DPS far superior than DNC and BRD on his own. (In under normal circonstance, He will replace DNC/BRD because of the ranged slot)
DNC/BRD Heavily rely on the team. If the team isn't good, they won't be either. (People who dies constantly, who don't do their rotation correctly, who don't keep uptime, etc etc... Many factor goes into account)

Obviously if you remove DPS provided by the buff don't act surprised that MCH is above.
BRD and DNC don't depends on their team, you're getting the whole thing backward.
BRD and DNC provides buffs, they did their job. How the team makes uses of these buffs doesn't impact BRD&DNC performances.

In a scenario where someone bursts outside the raid buff, it will only impact the whole group DPS and the colored numbers on FFLogs.
And we all know that FFLogs isn't a representation of skill.

Why is that ? Can you compare the rDPS of a DNC linked to a SAM with a 615 Weapon, against the same DNC but with a SAM with a 635 weapon ?

No you can't !

Yes you can.
Even more, you must compare those.

DNC is the only job that can gain rDPS because their dance partner has a higher ilvl.
It's a unique advantage that will always make DNC superior to MCH&BRD.
MCH scales better with gear than BRD or DNC but still remains lower than all the melees.

Which means MCH is the best candidate of the ranged role to receive gear but the worst candidate of the DPS role to receive gear.
DNC doesn't care, if the SAM is getting fed, the Dance Partner will have increased value for free.
This is a strength of DNC we can't ignore if we want to make MCH a viable choice.

[RylaBee]

BRD and DNC don't depends on their team, you're getting the whole thing backward.
BRD and DNC provides buffs, they did their job. How the team makes uses of these buffs doesn't impact BRD&DNC performances.

Are you actually being serious?

DNC is the only job that can gain rDPS because their dance partner has a higher ilvl.
It's a unique advantage that will always make DNC superior to MCH&BRD.

You do realize, this goes directly against the 1st statement?
Also its the unique feature that can make DNC either superior OR INFERIOR, depending also on that partner.