How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Gemina]

Well strictly from a game design standpoint, the assets associated with Miasma (as well as Miasma II and Miasma III) and Shadowflare were made and still exist for use. That's not to say new abilities shouldn't be made, but if we're trying to restore SCH's identity as a more offensive healer, then why not use the tools already at their disposal? Because you specifically are not a fan of them? And I don't meant that to sound mean or harsh, but there's not a real reason as to why those tools don't work on SCH. And SCH's identity also included those spells. SCH's identity as an offensive DoT healer was defined by its combination of those spells and its barriers. One was not superior to the other.

It has nothing to do with whether I am fan of those skills or not. No one is trying to restore SCHs identity as a more offensive healer. There are only those who have never been able to move past the direction the devs chose to go. That version of SCH is gone and it does not matter if this fact is to the chagrin, or the delight of any given player. This does not mean that SCH cannot be given more offensive tools, and again I ask why is the only acceptable implementation of this have to come in the form of old SCH?

I don't really feel like the sass is called for. I'm not trying to attack you, but regardless, that argument doesn't hold water. Reinstating their old offensive tools on principle does not mean that SCH's barriers are being taken away, or any other aspects of their kit. What are you afraid of losing? I'm sorry you didn't like old SCH, but in a scenario where someone rips a toy out of one child's toy and gives that toy to the other doesn't make that right from my perspective.

It's not sass. It's intent is as honest as when you asked me the same question. You even assume I didn't like old SCH. What makes you think that? Why do you deal in absolutes?

Do you think I don't like old SCH because I reject the proposition to revert it back to that? There is also the possibility that you think I dislike it because I am in favor with the direction that devs have gone with healing? Are these what draw your conclusions? You also think I'm afraid of losing something. Mentioning things like barriers being taken away when I haven't used anything like that in my arguments. Then the metaphor you choose to use to express your own grief is one of a child losing their toy.

[Supersnow845]

It has nothing to do with whether I am fan of those skills or not. No one is trying to restore SCHs identity as a more offensive healer. There are only those who have never been able to move past the direction the devs chose to go. That version of SCH is gone and it does not matter if this fact is to the chagrin, or the delight of any given player. This does not mean that SCH cannot be given more offensive tools, and again I ask why is the only acceptable implementation of this have to come in the form of old SCH?
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Well I mean the healer role from every statistic is dying if they aren’t trying to revive old SCH then I have no idea what they are doing because it was always one of the most beloved jobs in the game

[Gemina]

Well I mean the healer role from every statistic is dying if they aren’t trying to revive old SCH then I have no idea what they are doing because it was always one of the most beloved jobs in the game

Let me see the receipts.

Last I checked, the game is doing phenomenally well, and there are more players using healers now than ever. The devs have even quadrupled down at this point that they are not going back to the old healers. Seems to me there is just a loud minority of nostalgic healers.

[Supersnow845]

Let me see the receipts.

Last I checked, the game is doing phenomenally well, and there are more players using healers now than ever. The devs have even quadrupled down at this point that they are not going back to the old healers. Seems to me there is just a loud minority of nostalgic healers.

Healers currently have the lowest job satisfaction, besides WHM they have the lowest player number and they regularly rank amongst surveys for “needs changing the most” plus they are most in demand role for duty finder and it’s not even close

If the game got bigger but the amount of healers either didn’t get bigger or got bigger at a smaller rate then it’s evidence that the role isn’t doing well and healers haven’t had a positive survey in years

[Aword3213]

they are most in demand role for duty finder and it’s not even close

Depends on datacenter though. PF healer slot fills faster than DPS in JP datacenter since patch 5.2. I've tested it even before the release of datacenter traveling.

Healers also have slower queue time in Duty Finder. Rare instant pop-ups. Usually have to wait around 3-5 minutes even with Healer-in-Need.

However, healer number seems to drop a little in Abyssos. My fellow healer-main raiders who run with randoms a lot concluded that some healers got scared away by those spicy dots in this raid tier.

[Sani2341]

Depends on datacenter though. PF healer slot fills faster than DPS in JP datacenter since patch 5.2. I've tested it even before the release of datacenter traveling.

Healers also have slower queue time in Duty Finder. Rare instant pop-ups. Usually have to wait around 3-5 minutes even with Healer-in-Need.

However, healer number seems to drop a little in Abyssos. My fellow healer-main raiders who run with randoms a lot concluded that some healers got scared away by those spicy dots in this raid tier.

Interesting. Because over here on light Healers usualy get insta queues even when it Displays Tank in need. Only time I actually had to wait for a queue for a few minutes when healing was for alliance raid Roulette with dps in need.

Similar story for PF ime. Usualy it's the Healer slots that fill last unless you run stuff at really off hours.

[Renathras]

Healers currently have the lowest job satisfaction, besides WHM they have the lowest player number and they regularly rank amongst surveys for “needs changing the most” plus they are most in demand role for duty finder and it’s not even close

If the game got bigger but the amount of healers either didn’t get bigger or got bigger at a smaller rate then it’s evidence that the role isn’t doing well and healers haven’t had a positive survey in years

Got any sources for this?

My personal experience and knowledge more matches this guy's statements:

Depends on datacenter though. PF healer slot fills faster than DPS in JP datacenter since patch 5.2. I've tested it even before the release of datacenter traveling.

Healers also have slower queue time in Duty Finder. Rare instant pop-ups. Usually have to wait around 3-5 minutes even with Healer-in-Need.

However, healer number seems to drop a little in Abyssos. My fellow healer-main raiders who run with randoms a lot concluded that some healers got scared away by those spicy dots in this raid tier.

Healers are disliked by some, but it doesn't seem there's been some mass exodus and groups aren't having trouble finding healers. So a lot of people seem at least satisfied with the current state of things. Healer ques are OFTEN near-instant, but no moreso than tank ques are (and generally less-so), the only exception being 24 mans due to the different party setup (1/2/5 instead of 2/2/4;1/1/2 ratio), and in those, DPS is often the AIN and quickest ques.

Healers ARE frequently in demand, but no moreso than SB, and less so than early ShB (when a lot of people complained initially about the role and left it, only to either later come back or be replaced by new people flocking to the role)

Again, I get that some of you don't like the current state of healers, but your anecdote isn't exactly data, and overall, healers aren't exactly in short supply overall in the game right now. It's definitely been worse in the past. Ironically, during the periods that many of you say we should go back to - HW for example healers had effectively instant ques all the time and were widely seen as a role in shortage. Tank is always the most short role (except during a VERY brief time in early ShB partly due to the disgruntled healers and partly due to a lot of DPSers trying Tank for the first time seriously in ques as GNB), but outside of that, it's been pretty consistent as it is now as the most shortage role, not healers.

EDIT:

My personal experience with PF is that the healer slots takes the longest to fill. Longer then tanks even. A quick look through PF right now shows me a ton of groups needing healers. So I have to wonder what your evidence is for "there are more players using healers now then ever" because it certainly doesn't match up with reality.

I find this a bit curious. EVERY PF I'm in (whether or not I start one as a healer), healers are often either the first slot or second to fill. Even at different times, they're rarely the last (that's consistently tank, and sometimes DPS). I often have to swap to my tank or DPS Job to get into PFs for a lot of stuff because the healer slots are already all taken.

The Problem is that from my experience, doing high end counted that requires optimization and class understanding on the part of the player is counter-intuitive to healer design, which punishes optimization with higher 1 button spam uptime and makes one grasp how not very exciting a majority of healing tools in this game are, especially since most healers have exactly the same with different mild flavors.

Exactly this, healing is more fun the less you know about high end healing because high end healing just shows the healing role is a complete mess, dungeon healing can be somewhat interesting if you get like a quad pull with an undergeared tank or your DPS all stand in stupid but raid healing is just horrid because all you do is spam broil

I think...a lot of you need to learn to grasp a concept:

No one speaks for everyone, and it's rare one person even speaks for a majority of like-minded people.

I see a LOT of comments like this, but I've literally never met a fellow healer that feels this way, nor do I. To many of us, we want to help our team, but don't want to be TOO stressed out, and would find 1 button spam "rewarding" not "punishing", and just getting to support our friends and clear content "fun" not...what you guys consider fun, which sounds terribly stressful and un-fun to a lot of us.

Now, everyone's different, and I don't claim to speak for a majority, either. But I think folks with your mindsets tend to vastly underestimate the number of healer players who don't think like you. It may be a meme, but many healer players really ARE like the Anime mmo healer characters where they don't think they're good enough and just want to be useful to their friends. That is legitimately a thing irl as well as in fiction. Not everyone fancies themselves the star player of the game, many just want to be a team player and help their team win, even if that means they aren't making all the game winning shots or on the cover of the Wheaties box.

I'm not saying it's wrong to do one or the other, I'm just saying you may vastly underestimate how many people DON'T like optimizing things to a T or having detailed "healing CD plans" for encounters and the like; people who don't find any of that fun at all.

[Supersnow845]

Got any sources for this?

My personal experience and knowledge more matches this guy's statements:



Healers are disliked by some, but it doesn't seem there's been some mass exodus and groups aren't having trouble finding healers. So a lot of people seem at least satisfied with the current state of things.

Here is the 5.25 job satisfaction survey

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...urvey_results/

A 5.0 one for JP

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...dark_red_most/

Current census data for capped classes with healers besides WHM at the bottom

https://ffxivcensus.com/#class

6.2 results for JP main classes

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...in_jobs_in_62/




The healers at best get middle of the pack for main jobs (which is biased by the fact that raids need healers), they always do extremely poorly on job satisfaction and never rank highly on pretty much anything

[Renathras]

COUPLE things:

1) 5.25? Got anything more recent? Like...ANYTHING from 6.0 or later on Job satisfaction? To put things into perspective, 5.25 was before Seat of Sacrifice. That's rather dated data.

2) The second one is even OLDER, and likely captures a lot of the SCH/AST players mad at losing DoTs/Cards but not the people who came in to fill the spots after they left NOR the people who returned to the Jobs after taking a break as a healer/tank. Again, got any current data on this? Also note that in that survey, WHM was #5 from the top, which is a pretty good spot. This seems more reflective of the knee-jerk reaction of 4.X SCH/ASTs, not an overall view of the role or healers in general. We need more current data than a full expansion and a half ago. Note the top of that thread "3 years ago". I know you might try to counter this with "Well, they haven't changed since then!", but they very much HAVE. And if that view WAS correct, surely 6.0/6.1/6.2 data would support it and should be available, right?

3) The number of tanks vs healers is ~3.4M vs 3.2M, which isn't exactly a massive difference, and, as has been noted, doesn't count alt Jobs (which unfortunately can work on both directions - I'm a healer main but have WAR, GNB, and SMN all at 600+). I should also note that both are higher than Ranged (2.5M) or Caster (2.6M), so even if we were going to use these numbers, the result would be that "popularity" goes Melee > Tanks > Healers > Caster > Ranged, wouldn't it?

4) The fourth one even has in the blurb right under it "It's an online fan poll so take with the usual grain of salt,".

Healers get middle of the pack, which is a pretty good spot to be in. Middle of the pack isn't bottom of the pack. Though you hit on something interesting at the end - if healers NEVER rank high on anything (e.g. for the entire game's history), then nothing has changed. That same argument could be used to say 3.X healing models were as bad or worse, could it not?

.

I would like to see some current data on this. Everything here seems to either be massively outdated OR, for the stuff that's current, shows that healers are in a decent/middling place. While no one fantasizes over being the "middle child", it's worse than being on the bottom. Right now, it seems Casters and Ranged have it worse.

But you might say that's only because they have fewer Job options. But by that token, Tanks/Healers being behind Melee fits under that same argument, and Tanks/Healers being approximately equal would indicate both roles are equally healthy (or unhealthy, as the case may be), and Tanks have had 4 longer than Healers have.

[T-Owl]

I also agree with buffing. I never understand HEALERS that want to DAMAGE. Healing is a support role.

Oh, actually that one is easy. You think you want that, but you really don't. Blizzard tried this model out back during Vanilla WoW with the Holy Paladin. Players hated it and felt miserable being basically nothing but buffbots. Being a pure supporter does sound more fun than it actually is.

I'm not saying it's wrong to do one or the other, I'm just saying you may vastly underestimate how many people DON'T like optimizing things to a T or having detailed "healing CD plans" for encounters and the like; people who don't find any of that fun at all.

So you basically want to be carried while contributing the least compared to other classes, who have to perform more complex rotations while at the same time doing boss mechanics.

Exactly this, healing is more fun the less you know about high end healing because high end healing just shows the healing role is a complete mess, dungeon healing can be somewhat interesting if you get like a quad pull with an undergeared tank or your DPS all stand in stupid but raid healing is just horrid because all you do is spam broil

I feel like these parties are kind of the minority though. In most cases dungeons are basically saying hi at the beginning, wall to wall pulling with no issue or drama outside of the occassional new healer and people if ever dying depending on whether or not they haven't done the content in a long while or not, because how the hell am I supposed to remember how Rabanastre works, that was 4 years ago. I also feel like the issue with Healers is, they get easier as they go and growing closer to the ceiling of near permanent dps uptime is not a matter of skill, its just understanding that your ogcd cooldowns are your basic healing ressource and your casts are your oh shit button, not the other way around. Understanding this makes healing fairly easy.