Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[SpectrePhantasia]

What if they too had souls? Would you be equally willing to murder them just for the sake of a dead Amaurotine? If so, your actions would be no better than Emet's.

Are you kidding me? I would smash every single one of those cacti for a single Ancient. I'd do it on live television. I would power-bomb every Yukinko and not have any regrets. I would look at their disfigured faces as I was doing it, and just be thinking about the Ancient's weenwoons the whole time. The WoL does it for NO reason, so what's their excuse?

[Teraq]

If I did not murder them for a dead Amaurotine, I would absolutely murder them for fourteen bicolored gemstones?

Aisara, Queen of the Elpis Black Market, smiles upon you.

Imagine selling Bird of Elpis meat and eggs right under the nose of her unhinged ornithologist boss just because she wants to feed her stupid creation. I can only imagine she goes out of her Anagnorisis apartment at night with a big honking machete to keep her supply fresh. Best NPC in the zone, along with the researchers whose occupation is literally watching grass grow. My calling... what a beautiful world and society.

[EaraGrace]

No, because the protagonists never make any comment or speculation upon the original, non-Ascian plan to begin with. They only speculate on the implications this has to the current, Ascian plan, as that's the only one that has any relevance to them. They say absolutely nothing about "oh, the Ascians/Ancients were Like This, even before the Final Days and Zodiark!" All they say is, "this probably implies the Ascians won't stop even after the Rejoinings."

What would imply that? Thats the core of the question I'm asking. The Scions conclude this because of something we told them. What was it and why do the writers believe it to be enough for the Scions conclude the Ascians would sacrifice the Source. The writers had them conclude that for a reason.

See, and I'm an Ascian lover, and I have no problem believing this given the psychological and emotional state the Ascians are in in the present day. All of Sundered life, to the Ascian perspective--Emet-Selch's perspective that he's fervently trying to persuade himself of--are "perverted distortions" of the authentic life unjustly stolen, who have lived on the erased corpses, sacrifices, and history of what he himself refers to as "the first people," and ones furthermore embraced by Hydaelyn as "her children." I, as someone who is sometimes capable of a fair amount of Spite myself (shocking, I know!) don't find it a large leap at all to see someone in Emet's position going "Hydaelyn's children? Hahaha, more like Zodiark's dinner, losers!"

They wouldn't be her children anymore though. They would be Ancients, full and true. Every justification Emet used for what he did against the Sundered would be moot. Even he would not do so out of spite, when he's already clearly struggling to justify his actions so far.

They wouldn't be "shoving random souls" in. Under this idea, they'd evaluate more closely once those souls had properly developed over a period of generations, being nurtured by the survivors, when the planet was bursting with vitality. They're not arbitrarily throwing darts at a board or anything. It's just that, now that we have more understanding of the workings and limitations of the Ancients' magic, they probably literally had no way of knowing exactly how those sprouts of life would develop until they were done developing. I would presume that there would be less trouble "controlling" the souls within Zodiark as the heart were they less intelligent and sapient.

Yet we see in Pandaemonium that merging animals to Ancients has consequences. Pretty much every boss in that place merged with a random creation, and was irrevocably changed from it. I can't imagine Zodiark not being changed by having Lykaon or Behemoth souls.

[Alleo]

We have no explicit textual information on the content of the third sacrifice other than that it was "life". We can make guesses based on the tone of the story, but for all we know in terms of hard canon, it could have been plants. When I say that I am unsure whether or not they were sapient, I'm not downplaying their intelligence or humanity in an in-setting fashion - I would be the first to say their lives were of equal value to the Ancients if it was established they did have cognition - I am saying it has not been made clear by the writers if they even had brains.

Please stop being disingenuous.

And yet we have the hard confirmation that the surviving people of the Source would be used as the sacrifice to bring the Ancients back. Told by Emet himself. People that would have been unsundered at that point in time thus even Emet could not use the "you are not really alive" argument there.

So why would they suddenly use people, people that are whole (and could have been a reborn Ancient too) and not plants or cows? Why change it there?

On top of that we know from both sides that the third sacrifice bascially split the Ancient society apart. For the first time according to the Ascians, they could not see eye to eye with this. So much was going on that even Zodiarks Heart Elidibus came back to try to find a solution. Now we should believe that this was just because of plants? With the Ancients who had no problems turning living beings back into aether?

As we have found out through the watcher Venat might not even have told them the whole truth. So most of the people on her side still seemingly did it because they disagreed with the other side (and even told us that they failed to even reach them, Zodiark tempered them after all.) And all because of some plants and a few chickens?

That just does not feel right for me, especially not when the Ascians are more than ready to sacrifice people in the future.

[Absimiliard]

Zodiark wasn't an Ancient. Zodiark was simply a creation that required an investment of aether so vast it couldn't be done without many Ancients giving up their lives. It was filled to the brim with Ancient souls, yet it could do nothing of its own accord once Elidibus pulled himself away. Why would trading out one set of souls for another fundamentally change Zodiark when they're basically just its batteries anyway?

[Alleo]

Zodiark wasn't an Ancient. Zodiark was simply a creation that required an investment of aether so vast it couldn't be done without many Ancients giving up their lives. It was filled to the brim with Ancient souls, yet it could do nothing of its own accord once Elidibus pulled himself away. Why would trading out one set of souls for another for another fundamentally change Zodiark when they're basically just its batteries anyway?

Are they though? Fandaniel was more than able to take controll of Zodiark after its heart was gone. He was able to overpower all those Ancients. (And who were able to think and talk inside him too) For me it would not be surprising if a huge amount of tormented, angry souls could bascially start to control Zodiark and turn it against the Ancients in their rage.

[Absimiliard]

Fandaniel took control by becoming Zodiark's new heart. The other Ancients in there actually tried to stop him, but they were simply unable to.

[Hurlstone]

And yet we have the hard confirmation that the surviving people of the Source would be used as the sacrifice to bring the Ancients back. Told by Emet himself. People that would have been unsundered at that point in time thus even Emet could not use the "you are not really alive" argument there.

So why would they suddenly use people, people that are whole (and could have been a reborn Ancient too) and not plants or cows? Why change it there?

On top of that we know from both sides that the third sacrifice bascially split the Ancient society apart. For the first time according to the Ascians, they could not see eye to eye with this. So much was going on that even Zodiarks Heart Elidibus came back to try to find a solution. Now we should believe that this was just because of plants? With the Ancients who had no problems turning living beings back into aether?

As we have found out through the watcher Venat might not even have told them the whole truth. So most of the people on her side still seemingly did it because they disagreed with the other side (and even told us that they failed to even reach them, Zodiark tempered them after all.) And all because of some plants and a few chickens?

That just does not feel right for me, especially not when the Ascians are more than ready to sacrifice people in the future.

I must say, I find it hard to believe that the third sacrifice would have been non-sentient life. I feel if it had been the intent of the writers, it would have been made more clear. Sacrificing plants and even animals could be ‘defensible’ if it brought back the life of Ancients (Though I would defend the cows, because they are one of my favourite animals and are awesome!) but the narrative and way its talked about very much convinced me, at the time at least, that what would have been taken where actual sentient lives.

[Absimiliard]

I must say, I find it hard to believe that the third sacrifice would have been non-sentient life. I feel if it had been the intent of the writers, it would have been made more clear. Sacrificing plants and even animals could be ‘defensible’ if it brought back the life of Ancients (Though I would defend the cows, because they are one of my favourite animals and are awesome!) but the narrative and way its talked about very much convinced me, at the time at least, that what would have been taken where actual sentient lives.

Just as a quick note: many animals *are* sentient. Dogs, for example, are recognized as sentient beings. You may be looking for the word sapient. Sapient creatures would be things like people, dolphins, and whales. These animals possess cognitive abilities far beyond the majority.

The above aside, I would note the Ancients were not capable of willfully creating sapient life. The few examples we saw of them having done so are expressly noted to have come at the end of many failed attempts and are regarded as something that in all probability cannot be replicated. Similarly, they are completely without the ability grant souls to their creations. We're lead to believe Zodiark's ability to create has the same limitations as theirs.

So, while some of those intended for sacrifice to Zodiark could potentially have had souls, it would be rather odd for them to be planning to sacrifice only ensouled beings when they're such a rarity. It seems far more likely for the plan to be general sacrifice.

[AwesomeJr44]

Lyth, you know what I'm saying. Grass is life, and it sure as heck doesn't think. FFXIV follows Shinto rules where everything alive that isn't artificial has some kind of soul, but regardless, not all of it is conscious. And in spite of some of the fantastical creatures in-setting, a non-thinking being is what I meant by 'plant', as I'm sure you were well aware already.

Please stop being disingenuous.

Lyth? Not being disingenuous? Please, this is the same person who accused two posters of being the same person because they both played Midlanders. I think you're asking for the impossible here.

I feel if it had been the intent of the writers, it would have been made more clear.

There are a lot of things that are later revealed to be the 'intent of the writers' that weren't clear at all. Sometimes I swear this story is written after the fact through Live Letters...