Online Store is Getting Worse!

[Iyrnthota]

Hmm, looking further I'm not so sure. I googled WoW subscribers and got a place that claimed they have 4.8 mil, and there's no way ff has that many more.

You might be right that "subscribers" in the ways that these places count is defined as "people who have been subbed at least once at some point" not "people who are currently subbed"

Edit:

Okay, revised figures. on the assumption of 2.2 mil active players with all other assumptions being equal, that would be ~237 million annually, gross.

Which seeing it written down sounds a lot more reasonable (2 bil? Really?) .
Don't know that it changes my opinion mind.

[Deveryn]

Some back of the envelope calculations on my part

Assuming:

1. Squenix reporting of 24 mil accounts as of Oct 21 is both accurate and each is a distinct subscription
2. Each of these is paying a 30 day standard sub in my region at 8.99/month

Thats ~2 billion (2,000,000,000) gross annually, not including Mogstation transactions or upfront expansions payments.

I don't claim to be an expert on MMO maintenance costs, but that seems like plenty of income to me.

You don't seem to understand basic economics and the fact that prices for everything else have gone up, yet the subscription fee remains the same.

I don't claim to be an expert on the costs, but I've paid attention to this genre and what those in the industry have had to say on the matter. Years ago, decisions had to be made in order to support these efforts. One thought that floated around was actually in-game advertisements. Thankfully, that never happened and they instead decided to address the market for luxury goods.

[Iyrnthota]

You don't seem to understand basic economics and the fact that prices for everything else have gone up, yet the subscription fee remains the same.

I don't claim to be an expert on the costs, but I've paid attention to this genre and what those in the industry have had to say on the matter. Years ago, decisions had to be made in order to support these efforts. One thought that floated around was actually in-game advertisements. Thankfully, that never happened and they instead decided to address the market for luxury goods.

Nah, I reckon even these days they could sustain on subs alone. Obviously we'll likely never know for sure, cause they're never gonna release that info, but I even with the increase in costs due to inflation over the years they'd be fine.

Least I'm honest enough to put it up front where my opinions are based, not hiding behind mysterious industry insiders and thinly veiled insults.

Edit: There's a daily post limit apparently.

[ForteNightshade]

I dunno, I was doing some googling, and it looks like more recent estimates have total number of subscribers at over 30 mil.

I was going to quote them, but most seems to be pulling that figure from here:
https://mmo-population.com/r/ffxiv

First and foremost, MMO-Population is a terrible website that has never once provided sources for their claims. Everything there should be completely disregarded.

Secondly, the whole 30-40 million players is just PR advertisement which ever game in the industry does. This number accounts for every single person who has ever registered an account, bots and trials included. If someone tried FFXIV for all of five minutes then uninstalled, they'll forever count in the "30 million players" advertisement. The reason companies stopped giving actual estimates dates back to WoW first fall from grace. Basically, Blizzard didn't want to advertise losing players. So they switched to "accounts made" despite still claiming it was the same thing. Other games have followed suit for similar reasons.

The best estimation we have of FFXIV's active playerbase is from an official census done by Lucky Bancho.

[Puremallace]

People keep buying so why not keep doing it? Also the exchange rate for dollars to yen is 142 right no so them making pretty much anything in dollars makes them INSANELY profitable in Japan. It really is worse then you think it is.

That is the devils barging we all make by playing FF14. They deliver a solid product and we all look the other way on their extremely excessive monetization.

[Bukachu]

I'll argue that it's not predatory at all and people are using the term in a way that doesn't fit this game. Mogstation items are purely optional and cosmetic, and as such give no substantive benefit to the player. Predatory sales tactics are those in which the developer intentionally makes items that give substantive benefits to the player and design the game in such a way that said benefits are necessary to play the game at a more than sub-standard level. Predatory is a "create a problem then sell the solution" situation, or in other terms, design the game so the player is forced to spend money to make up for design deficiencies. In addition to that, having monetization schemes where the currency the person buys is in portions that are either insufficient or way more than is needed to buy items; forcing the player to spend much more than is necessary to get said item.

This game has plenty of items, emotes, mounts, minions, and dyes available strictly though in-game activities that one need not buy anything to get full benefit from their game purchase and subscription. If SE want to charge a premium price for luxury items that's up to them. It's up to the player to decide if that item is worth the price, aka has value to them. It may be distasteful to many to have a cash shop in a game that requires a purchase and subscription, but it's in now way predatory.


As a previous poster said; Mogstation purchases subsidize people who don't buy from it as the extra revenue helps keep sub costs down. Think what you will of people who buy Mogstation stuff, have extra retainers, or both, but realize they're the ones keeping your sub from hitting the $15 per month standard of other subscription models out there.

Isnt sub 15 euros? am I stupid for paying that much?

[Saraide]

I'll argue that it's not predatory at all and people are using the term in a way that doesn't fit this game. Mogstation items are purely optional and cosmetic, and as such give no substantive benefit to the player. Predatory sales tactics are those in which the developer intentionally makes items that give substantive benefits to the player and design the game in such a way that said benefits are necessary to play the game at a more than sub-standard level. Predatory is a "create a problem then sell the solution" situation, or in other terms, design the game so the player is forced to spend money to make up for design deficiencies. In addition to that, having monetization schemes where the currency the person buys is in portions that are either insufficient or way more than is needed to buy items; forcing the player to spend much more than is necessary to get said item.

This game has plenty of items, emotes, mounts, minions, and dyes available strictly though in-game activities that one need not buy anything to get full benefit from their game purchase and subscription. If SE want to charge a premium price for luxury items that's up to them. It's up to the player to decide if that item is worth the price, aka has value to them. It may be distasteful to many to have a cash shop in a game that requires a purchase and subscription, but it's in now way predatory.


As a previous poster said; Mogstation purchases subsidize people who don't buy from it as the extra revenue helps keep sub costs down. Think what you will of people who buy Mogstation stuff, have extra retainers, or both, but realize they're the ones keeping your sub from hitting the $15 per month standard of other subscription models out there.

The "just cosmetics" argument is complete nonsense. The biggest most sought after rewards in this game are all cosmetic in nature, ilvl holds very little value in the long term. Ultimate weapons, relics and savage gear are primarily useful as glams, savage mounts are purely cosmetic.

[SturmChurro]

The "just cosmetics" argument is complete nonsense. The biggest most sought after rewards in this game are all cosmetic in nature, ilvl holds very little value in the long term. Ultimate weapons, relics and savage gear are primarily useful as glams, savage mounts are purely cosmetic.

Exactly right. FFXIV isn't at that point, but many games purposefully lock anything worthwhile behind the cash shop, lootboxes, premium battlepass, etc.. and thet get away with it, because it's "just cosmetic". For example, making anything attainable in-game of much less quality, or just plain ugly, to exacerbate the issue; to nudge players into the cash shop. Sometimes also providing enough "free" currency to get people into the cash shop, and cash in (literally in many cases) on the PR of this "free currency".

Very similar to "pay for convenience". The devs have to purposefully make the game inconvenient to allow for "convenience" features.

[Illmaeran]

Isnt sub 15 euros? am I stupid for paying that much?

I don't know what a sub costs in Euros, but I don't think you're stupid for paying it if you enjoy playing the game.

The "just cosmetics" argument is complete nonsense. The biggest most sought after rewards in this game are all cosmetic in nature, ilvl holds very little value in the long term. Ultimate weapons, relics and savage gear are primarily useful as glams, savage mounts are purely cosmetic.

The point of the paragraph you quoted from is that the Mogstation is not predatory, given the context of what I said in that paragraph. Purely optional and cosmetic, not "just cosmetics". I disagree that the argument of mogstation items being optional and cosmetic in nature is nonsense. I agree that the items most desirable over the long term are so due to their cosmetic potential. Reading between the lines, I get the message that because things in the game are highly sought after for their cosmetic qualities the Mogstation is a bad thing because it sells items for cosmetic purposes; therefore, making the sale of things bad because people do in-game activities to get cosmetic items. Am I understanding that correctly?

On the topic of mounts, I agree that they are a cosmetic thing. Given how a person acquires them, they give visual proof that the person riding it has accomplished something in the game; whether that be trials, dungeons, PoTD, or what have you. We know that someone on the Nightmare mount has put in the time and effort to get it and we respect the player for that. We also know that someone riding the Megashiba bought it and as such, don't hold that player in regard the same way we do a player with the Nightmare mount. Yes, both are cosmetic, but I would argue their cosmetic importance is based on the mode of acquisition, not the mount itself.

The sort of item you referred to are all available in the game, through in-game actions, and are not sold on the Mogstation. Also, some of the items in question, such as armor and weapons, have substantive benefit to the player. We're not seeing items that provide anything other than cosmetic benefit being sold on the Mogstation. Therefore, the Mogstation doesn't fit the definition of predatory I provided. We may disagree on the definition of predatory, but we must agree that everything sold on the Mogstation is optional, cosmetic in nature, and has no substantive impact on the game, barring the Fenris motorcycle's speed thing.

Which seeing it written down sounds a lot more reasonable (2 bil? Really?) .

The Yen to US dollar conversion is usually around 100:1, so 237 million USD is roughly equal to 237 billion Yen. It's really easy to see the 2 billion and think it's in USD rather than Yen, which is likely the cause of misunderstanding/mis-stating reported income.

[Saraide]

I don't know what a sub costs in Euros, but I don't think you're stupid for paying it if you enjoy playing the game.



The point of the paragraph you quoted from is that the Mogstation is not predatory, given the context of what I said in that paragraph. Purely optional and cosmetic, not "just cosmetics". I disagree that the argument of mogstation items being optional and cosmetic in nature is nonsense. I agree that the items most desirable over the long term are so due to their cosmetic potential. Reading between the lines, I get the message that because things in the game are highly sought after for their cosmetic qualities the Mogstation is a bad thing because it sells items for cosmetic purposes; therefore, making the sale of things bad because people do in-game activities to get cosmetic items. Am I understanding that correctly?

On the topic of mounts, I agree that they are a cosmetic thing. Given how a person acquires them, they give visual proof that the person riding it has accomplished something in the game; whether that be trials, dungeons, PoTD, or what have you. We know that someone on the Nightmare mount has put in the time and effort to get it and we respect the player for that. We also know that someone riding the Megashiba bought it and as such, don't hold that player in regard the same way we do a player with the Nightmare mount. Yes, both are cosmetic, but I would argue their cosmetic importance is based on the mode of acquisition, not the mount itself.

The sort of item you referred to are all available in the game, through in-game actions, and are not sold on the Mogstation. Also, some of the items in question, such as armor and weapons, have substantive benefit to the player. We're not seeing items that provide anything other than cosmetic benefit being sold on the Mogstation. Therefore, the Mogstation doesn't fit the definition of predatory I provided. We may disagree on the definition of predatory, but we must agree that everything sold on the Mogstation is optional, cosmetic in nature, and has no substantive impact on the game, barring the Fenris motorcycle's speed thing.

I think you definition of what qualifies as predatory monetization is a bad one because it only considers pay to win aspects. In reality looking good and showing off is a considerable driving force in any game that allows for customization, the acquisition of that is evidently only one aspect of it. If the acquisition was the only thing that mattered no one would buy mogstation stuff for their looks. It would only be a questionable means to show off wealth. It is then no surprise any greedy salesperson would drive up prices on what people care for most and within their own game they have an absolute monopoly.

You say that everything sold on the mogstation has no substantive impact on the game (excluding the bike) but looking good has a substantive impact on our enjoyment of games in general.